Talk:Ansel Adams/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Updates to the lead

@Cullen328: Please let me know your objections to my update of the lead to this article so that we may have a productive discussion and reach a consensus on those changes. Qono (talk) 04:10, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

Though I am not Cullen328, here's one comment. In the very first sentence, you added
perhaps the most popular photographer of all time,<ref>{{Cite web|url=https://www.artsy.net/artist/ansel-adams|title=Ansel Adams - 368 Artworks, Bio & Shows on Artsy|accessdate=2018-07-22}}</ref>
First, as I view the page, it doesn't say this. Secondly, even if it does/did, I don't see how Artsy (a sales website) would be a credible source. Thirdly, I'd wonder what criteria could be used and whether such a statement, without an elaborate explanatory footnote or similar, could ever be encyclopedic. (How, in one short clause, could anyone meaningfully compare the popularities of Adams, Korda, Geddes, and others?) -- Hoary (talk) 04:29, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Qono, I want to know why you thought that the lead section of this article, which is the product of collaborative work by dozens of editors over many years, needs such a dramatic and sudden rewrite. I certainly did not not think that the article is perfect and am more than willing to consider changes, but I think that incremental and gradual changes to the body of the article are the way to begin. The lead can then be gradually rewitten to reflect changes in the body, since the purpose of the lead is to summarize the body.
In more specific terms, I object to the seemingly-promotional claim "perhaps the most popular photographer of all time" cited to Artsy (website), a commercial website that offers hundreds of thousands of artworks for sale online. Not only do I consider this link inappropriate but I consider its use to be spam. I do not like eliminating mention of Yosemite in favor of the far vaguer "American West". Although all his students know that he photographed widely throughout the west, I think that it is indisputable that Adams and Yosemite are inextricably linked in both reliable sources and the popular imagination.
I also object to the third paragraph consisting of harsh criticism, the largest paragraph in a three paragraph lead. Of course, criticism of Adams should be included in the body, but neutrality is not obtained by beginning the lead with fulsome promotional praise and ending it with scathing criticism. Instead, we should summarize how academic experts in photography as an art form assess Adams' legacy, as time has gone by. Overall, his reputation remains strong.
Your revision eliminates his role as an environmentalist. His participation in the Sierra Club was an essential part of his identity almost his entire life, and should be mentioned in the lead. Describing the Zone System as "complicated" says little when discussing the techniques of professional photographers 75 years ago. Photographers have it far easier now. The current version is a much better summary. The current version also mentions that his notabilty comes from popular culture such as postcards, calendars and books, as well as fine art photography. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 05:44, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, Cullen328 and Hoary. These are all fair points.
My lead rewrite was in anticipation of further edits to the body. I see how that is putting the cart before the horse, so I will start with changes to the body, and be as incremental as is practical. My aim is to make it easier for the reader to find out more about his most important contributions and the highlights of his career.
I don't think Artsy should be disqualified as a source just because it's for-profit, but there are plenty of other reputable sources to cite in regards to Adams's popularity, so I won't pursue that particular debate. Qono (talk) 01:53, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
Artsy does not meet our standards as a reliable source. Period. End of story. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:03, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Links to information for improvement

These sites contain information that potentially could be used to improve the article. They do not provide a unique resource beyond what the article would contain if it became a featured article, so they have been moved here from the External links section in accordance with WP:ELNO criterion #1.

--Worldbruce (talk) 18:45, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Reverted copyedits to the lead

@Dicklyon: Can you please clarify your objection to the copyedit that you reverted? Qono (talk) 18:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I felt that "during" was not the right word, certainly not relative to exposure. And that "development" was more specific and appropriate than "processing", and that the last sentence rewrite really seemed to dilute the point. Dicklyon (talk) 19:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Ansel Adams/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: RockMagnetist (talk · contribs) 23:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)


I plan to review this article. RockMagnetist(talk) 23:03, 26 February 2019 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): (Note: the copyright detector flagged this article, but it postdates the relevant additions to Wikipedia by several years.)
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Sources

  • I can't find this source: Goldbloom, J. (1990). "Remembering the Kenmore" in Philly Art Walks. Fall 1990. Also, it isn't formatted so the Goldbloom 1990 anchor can point to it. Also, Adams 1983 points nowhere. RockMagnetist(talk) 23:20, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty sure that Adams 1983 is just a typo, so I changed it to 1985. I don't have access to that particular edition, so I'm checking the citations on an e-book copy that unfortunately does not have page numbers. Also, Alinder is a co-author, so I fixed that. RockMagnetist(talk) 18:02, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
  • The following sources have no link pointing to them:
  • "Legacy: Think Like Ansel Adams Today". Outdoor Photographer. Werner. February 3, 2009. Retrieved January 17, 2013.
  • Adams, Ansel (1989). Examples. Boston: Little, Brown. ISBN 978-0-8212-1750-4. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  • Read, Michael (1993). Michael Read (ed.). Ansel Adams, New light: Essays on His Legacy and Legend. San Francisco: The Friends of Photography. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  • Sierra Club. "Roster of Sierra Club Directors" (PDF). Sierra Club. Retrieved April 12, 2010. {{cite web}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
You could put these in a new Further reading section, delete them, or just remove the ref=harv tags. RockMagnetist(talk) 23:24, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The list of sources is very long, so I've removed these. Qono (talk) 04:29, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Text

  • The info on his flu was inaccurate. I added some material and a source - can you check the page number?
    • It looks like that source already has page numbers included: Adams & Alinder 1985, p. 54–55. Let me know if I'm mistaken. Qono (talk) 04:10, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
      • Yes. The problem is, I don't have access to the edition that you're using, so the page numbers might be different. RockMagnetist(talk) 06:20, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
        • Sorry, I don't have the print edition of this book, so can't check the page numbers. Qono (talk) 02:14, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Yosemite Valley quote: this is a nice quote, but its reason for inclusion is not clear. There isn't any text referring to it outside the quote.
    • I agree. I've removed the quote. Qono (talk) 02:15, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Citations needed

  • Paragraph on marriage to Virginia Best
  • "He decided that the purpose of his art, whether photography or music, was to reveal that beauty to others and to inspire them to the same philosophy."
    • I think it's going to be difficult to source this, and the sentiment is expressed in the preceding, sourced quotation, so I have removed this. Qono (talk) 04:14, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
  • "An early piano student was mountaineer and fellow Sierra Club leader Jules Eichorn."
    • Looked around and was not able to find a reputable source for this. Sentence removed. Qono (talk) 04:22, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
  • "His marriage also marked the end of his serious attempt at a musical career, as well as her ambitions to be a classical singer." Judging by what I have read, the marriage has little or nothing to do with ending his musical career.
    • Removed this. Qono (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
  • "During the 1930s ..." (paragraph on advocacy for King's Canyon). The NY Times article isn't an adequate source as it says very little. The proper source is the autobiography, but I don't have access to a copy with page numbers.
  • I felt the second on the Mural Project needed a little fleshing out, but I am still unable to determine page numbers for the 1996 edition of the biography. Can you check the page numbers for the first and second last paragraphs?
    • I don't have access to the print material to check page numbers. Can you use the "at" parameter in the citation, quoting the text where the citation is sourced? This can be easily overridden with a page number later. Qono (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
  • First paragraph of section on 1950s cites a single page in Alinder (1996), but it's clearly multiple pages.
  • Paragraph on Arles Festival of Photography
    • Sentence changed and citation added. Qono (talk) 00:11, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
  • First two sentences of last paragraph in Later Career.
    • Done! Qono (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
  • "Adams's images of the West ..." (Landscapes of the American West).
    • This is out of place anyways, so I've simply removed this unsourced content. Qono (talk) 00:39, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Citation style

  • This is not a very important issue, but the citations/sources sections would be more compact if {{sfn}} tags were only used for sources where books are being repeatedly cited with different page numbers. One-off citations could be cited using the usual <ref>...</ref> format. I have taken the liberty of using that approach for the citations I have added.
    • I think these are the two best options. 1) We use Sfn for all citations. This keeps things consistent and provides a single master list of sources. 2) We use inline page numbers instead of Sfn, which would consolidate sources used repeatedly with different page numbers, and would, in effect, combine the references and sources list. This would tidy up and consolidate the citations, perhaps at the expense of cluttering the article itself with inline page numbers. Thoughts? Qono (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
      • I'll tell you two reasons why I like the scheme I suggested: first, it's really convenient to use the pull-down menu for one-off citations, which results in the <ref>...</ref> footnotes. And restricting Sfn to a few books has the advantage that it highlights the major general sources. I think my second choice would be your option 2. But you're the one who has been putting most of the work in this article, and I'm fine with whatever you choose. RockMagnetist(talk) 02:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
        • This makes sense to me. I've converted the citations without multiple page number being sourced to the ref style. Qono (talk) 23:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
  • A consistent format is needed for dates.
    • This is done. I used "Month D, YYYY" given that this ia an American photographer and the article itself and most of the sources were already using that format. Qono (talk) 23:34, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
  • I am glad to see that you are expanding the references for the works by Adams. But I'm puzzled that you moved them into Select Bibliography. Wouldn't it make more sense to keep them under Works?
    • The "Works" section is now "Photographs". I think, ultimately, much of what is in this section will be moved. The bit about color photography could be covered in "Contributions and influence" and the list of notable works can be moved to the infobox. The gallery would then be its own section. So I think it makes sense to move the works under bibliography. Qono (talk) 02:45, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Fair enough. I like your new organization for "Bibliographies". RockMagnetist(talk) 02:49, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Personal life

  • While the breadth of coverage is more than adequate for GA class, it dawned on me that there is little information on his personal life in the section on his career. When I was adding to the infobox, I couldn't determine where he lived most of his life from this article! I have added a note about the home they built after their marriage, and will add something about the later home near Carmel. But it leaves me wondering whether there are other important personal details that are missing.
  • I'm not going to worry about this one. Something to think about before submitting for FA, maybe. RockMagnetist(talk) 15:35, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Almost done

I'm almost ready to sign off on this one. I just need to see the citations for those last three items in Citations needed. RockMagnetist(talk) 22:13, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

This should be done now. Let me know if you spot anything else. Qono (talk) 00:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
That will do it! RockMagnetist(talk) 01:21, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Organization

The biography of Adams is placed in a subsection, and there are two levels of subsection within it. However, the smallest units (the decades) are pretty long, and a few sub-headings would help to organize them. For example, in the 1940s, a subsection on the Mural Project and another on WWII might be appropriate. However, fifth-level subheadings look the same as fourth-level. I have boldly decided to move the biography subsections up a level to implement that. RockMagnetist(talk) 17:40, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Placement of images

(Some issues aren't really a part of the review, so I'm posting them separately.) There are a lot of images from the early 1940s, and I understand why. It's o.k. if a few are placed out of their chronological place, but the WWII farm images really belong in that subsection. The Lake McDonald image being quite large, I moved it to "The Zone System" to reduce clutter. RockMagnetist(talk) 18:12, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I'm delighted that you added Monolith to the article! RockMagnetist(talk) 06:22, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks! Qono (talk) 20:49, 5 March 2019 (UTC)


A point of grammer/grammar

There has been disagreement on how to write a possessive plural for the Adams family. I looked around some of the grammar guide, and they all agree that the plural of Adams is Adamses. As to whether this should be followed by an apostrophe or 's, there is some disagreement in general, but a good rule of thumb is - how would you pronounce it? It would be awkward to pronounce Adamses's with three "s" sounds, so I would say that Adamses' is correct. RockMagnetist(talk) 05:28, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

My correction was assuming the piano belonged to Ansel, not the Adams family. If it is the family’s piano (a safe bet if Adams is 12 at the time) then “Adamses’” is correct. Qono (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
The disagreement linked to involves singular constructions. If it's plural, then there's invariably no "s" added after the apostrophe. Dhtwiki (talk) 21:37, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

For after the Guild of Copy Editors banner is removed

  • The description of the business ventures of Charlie Adams is incorrect. There were two businesses - a lumber business built by William Adams that dwindled while William was still alive, leaving Charlie with little. The other was the Classen Chemical Company, which Charlie founded to make money off his patented method of making 200-proof alcohol out of sawdust. That's the one that Hawaiian sugar interests bought out because they were rivals, and once they had the controlling interest they fired the employees and ruined the factory. Charlie was left holding 46 percent of the now-worthless stock. (All of this from the Alinder bio.) RockMagnetist(talk) 05:39, 20 April 2019 (UTC)
  • In the "Birth" subsection, in the phrase "the only child of Charles Hitchcock Adams and Olive Bray Adams", the second mention of the surname seems superfluous. Should giving the wife's maiden be enough? I felt like changing it during the copy edit, as it could give the impression that "Adams" was the wife's maiden name; but I wasn't sure that it wasn't her maiden name. Dhtwiki (talk) 11:46, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
@Dhtwiki: "Adams" is not Olive Bray's maiden name, "Bray" is. I've removed the redundant "Adams" here. Qono (talk) 21:54, 8 May 2019 (UTC)
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