Talk:All Quiet on the Western Front/Archive 1

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Additions

Hi I added some stuff in the theme section (a few of days ago, I just thought now I should post here). The stuff I posted needs to be intergrated with the rest of the theme stuff. I added the stuff from a novel report I did at school, so thats why its sepertaed. GeZe 01:17, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

Lee1026 Wrote:

jd

Right now this artical needed alot of work. I feel that can be alot of room for improvement by adding the theme and improving the story. I will do my best of course, but help is always welcome. 5/6/2004

An anonymous user wrote:

An update: Who ever wrote this particular piece left out one great detail. Mr. George Abbott was one of the greatest Broadway showmen of all time! He was born in Forestville on June 25, 1887 and died at the great age of 107 on January 31, 1995. He directed over 150 shows during his lifetime, including the brilliant "Damn Yankees".

Anon, please feel free to click the link to George Abbott and fill in his bio! --Brion 01:59 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)

Hoho writes:

jd I'm unable to find the line refered to by "It is interesting to note that Muller? (Or is it Kat) suggested that wars should be fought by the comfortable people themselves, because they are the only ones with anything to gain from a victory of any kind."

There's a two page discussion on the subject of who benefits, but I can't find what's described above. Perhaps a direct quote would be better?

This is from my translation. Kropp, though, is more of a philosopher. He is proposing that wars should be run rather like festivals, with entrance tickets and bands, along the lines of a bullfight. There, in the centre of the arena, the government ministers and generals could slug it out amongst themselves, wearing swimming costumes and armed with nightsticks. Whoever survives, his country wins. That would be much simpler and more just than this arrangement, where the wrong people do the fighting.

We all appreciate his suggestion.Rumiton 11:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Also a little question: Did Remarque translate the book into english himself? I have an old edition, it doesn't name a translator.

  • The original translation was by A. W. Wheen in 1929. I know of two other translations, one by Tilman Westphalen in 1987, the other by Brian Murdoch in 1994. As far as I am aware, Remarque did not translate the book. Sliggy 20:14, 29 November 2005 (UTC)

You are right, Remarque's English remained somewhat limited. I completed an English translation of my own in 1990. It isn't published, so doesn't count as a source, but I am happy to discuss it with anyone here. Rumiton 14:04, 2 March 2007 (UTC)


There is no good divide between the book, the film, and the recent remake of the film. some information on this would be nice, and should each be given its own page, as many other books with films based on them have been done elsewhere in wikipedia? - fruitybix 5/10/05

This is Wikipedia, so you know what to do: be bold!
Also, you can conveniently "sign" your talk posts by including four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your pot. When you press "Save changes", they will be converted into your Wiki username in a handy linked form and also a timestamp for your post.
Atlant 14:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

School Essay by WikiTikix

This is probably one of the best books I've read for a long time. I'm not really into War books, but this one was really good. The main characters are Paul Baumer, Albert Kropp, Tjaden, Kemmerach, Detering, and Katczinsky (Kat for short). There is a side character named Himmelstoss who is mean and expects respect from them because he is their superior officer. They give him none. - This story takes place on the Western Front in Germany and France. It shows how War really is. People think War is great and glorious, but this shows it isn't. The bombardments, the gas... This book really puts you in the place of Paul Baumer. - I won't tell you much about the book because you really have to read it in order to get everything from it. The part that is hard for Paul is when he goes on leave because people are asking him to tell everyone how great it is to die for your fatherland. He leaves early because he hates having everyone call him a coward because he tells the truth about War. It's awful. - There's also a movie. It's black and white movie, and was made in 1930. The movie was good, but it didn't portray the characters like I thought they'd look like. For example, Kat is chubby in the movie and I imagined him being kind of thin and wise, with a calm voice. If you are interested in watching the movie, read the book first. My teacher told me to and I'm glad I did. You get a much better idea from the book than the movie. - I really enjoyed this book. I'd recommend it to anyone who likes War stories or if you're interested in The Great War from the German's perspective. This book isn't that hard to read either. There are some tricky words, but if you can read Harry Potter, you can read this. - I suggest that you should at least look into this book. It's really great!

would just like to thank whoever wrote this page. i have to study this novel for A2 English Literature and have found it really useful!!! Claire 

                                 4/6/06 10:16pm ET        
                                      A.E.W

I have a character analysis paper due tomorrow on Paul Baümer. Unfortunatley, I am a prokrastinator and did not read the book. Instead, I watched the movie. I also went on CliffsNotes and Wikipedia. I hope I can pull this off. WISH ME LUCK!!!

Drawing a bird?

Not sure what version of the book others have read but the version I have doesn't have Paul getting killed while drawing a bird. The book simply ends saying he fell before the war's end.

He dies drawing a bird in the latter movie, not the book...additionally i thought the book was based on the diaries of a soldier who really did die in the war...if memory serves me correct, his mother received it and had it published??

Remarque wrote this book from his experience in World War I every character is fictional not based on real people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.195.244.89 (talk) 00:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

That is what is called a "disclaimer." In fact, the book closely mirrors Remarque's army experience. He joined up in 1916 at 18 years old. There was a training camp near his hometown very much like "Klosterberg" and the NCO there was very much like Corporal Himmelstoss, who was later sent to the front. Remarque's mother was ill for years, and died of cancer while he was in an army hospital. His father was a bookbinder. There was a "poplar stream," loved by children, near his home. He had an older sister like the one in the book. (She was hanged by the Nazis during World War Two, mainly because they could not get hold of Remarque himself.) Rumiton (talk) 15:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
No, he survived both World Wars, the second one as an exile from the Nazis. --GwydionM 18:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The bird scene was part of the 1930 movie, a device to link the beginning where Paul is in school, with the end. In the book, Paul Baumer is shot just before the end of the war. Rumiton 13:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC) Rumiton.

Minor detail, but I think the bird scene is in the 1979 movie (Richard Thomas, Ernest Borgnine), not the 1930 movie. The 1930 movie has Paul (Lewis Ayers?) reaching for a butterfly. (btw - the hand reaching for the butterfly is actually the Director's)...
The book does not state how he died, only that "he fell" on a quiet day...so I guess the movies had to invent something...Engr105th 05:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not war that kills you, it's being a pansy and chasing after birds that kills you. I think they could have come up with something better for the end.
Like, he's killed by a soldier that he refused to kill earlier... or killed a soldier that some how could have saved his life only a few minutes later (bomb technician or something). You could make a hundred meanings out of either.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 07:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I kind of agree with you. The whole bird thing was just 1930s Hollywood sentimentality. But it's not in the book. Let's stick with the book. Rumiton (talk) 08:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler

I removed the spoiler because, whether it be 'Plot' or 'Synopsis', it means the same thing, and it tells the reader that they will be finding out about the story. There is no need for an ugly banner to reiderate something that is already there. This is an encyclopaedia and not anonline forum, this spoiler aren't always neccessary, especially when it clearly states that it's the plot. And just because The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe is like the way you changed it to does not make it the preferred version. I welcome comments here before you revert back. Regards, Chuck(척뉴넘) 21:31, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Book Review

This is a really good war biography. It illustrates many contraversial points. If you want to know more, read the book.

Dthong?

In my book his name is Detering, anyone else the same? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.142.27.191 (talk) 02:53, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Detering is one of the characters. Rumiton 13:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Nothing New in the West

In the English edition I read, the actual phrase is used at the end, where the context is obvious. It was a new translation that however made a point of using the older title.

If anyone has both English translations - or are there more than two - a comparison would also be interesting.

There is a third translation, done by me :-) but not published. Some of the German phrases just do not work in English, and the title is one. The problem is the word Neues. It means something new, but also swings towards something "newsworthy." Probably the best translation, though clumsy, would be: "Nothing of news value from the West." "All Quiet on the Western Front" is way better. Rumiton 13:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Albert Kropp

I'm suprised there's no section for Kropp under the main characters, Kropp was injured and had his leg amputated (much like Kemmerich). Kropp and Paul both went to hospital together (around chapter ten I think), and it is implied that Kropp would either give up and die, or actually just actively kill himself. I'm not the greatest writer, so someone else should probably right the kropp section, but I figured I should mention that he needs to be put in their. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Riphal (talk • contribs) 08:16, 14 January 2007 (UTC).

I want to mention that, in my opinion, I think that Kat is Paul's closest friend: not Kropp, which is what the article states. Just saying...

Omen

in my humble opinion was the original english translation simple false. However factually correct, but I think Remarque wrote intentionaly "Im westen nichts neues" instead of " An der westlichen Front nichts neues", because the sense of the first phrase is much deeper going than a description of some military events. For example, I undorstood the wording "Im Westen nichts neues" as a mene tekel prophecy over the western civilisation ... [on the other side, maybe I am false, because English, Deutsch and Русский язык are my second languages and I hate learning languages :] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.168.225.178 (talk) 09:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so, not in the context of the book, and not in 1925 when it was written. This is not about revolution. The title is a work of genius, as is the entire book. The words are a reminder of a domestic life whose rhythms have not been that much affected by this war taking place in "the west." (Remember that the war in the east had been over for several months.) There is multiple irony in the words. The German public had become so used to the casualty lists over 4 years of war that they were no longer "news." It almost seems that the quiet, pre-war life had become even quieter in response to (or in denial of) the remote battles. The title also emphasises that the death of one soldier is entirely insignificant. Rumiton (talk) 13:06, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

POV

I edited out the phrase "it is concedered the best war book ever written" because is is clearly POV, and not sourced. - Not Signed In —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.164.12.217 (talk • contribs).

I just had to edit it out again. Actually this time it just said "it is the greatest war novel ever written." Atinoda 08:12, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Question about plot summary item

The plot summary includes the statement: "He returns to his school where his teacher is still encouraging young men to enlist. Asked to [tell?] what the war is like, he tells them the truth and is shouted out of the classroom."

This event happens in the original movie, but I don't remember it and can't find it in the book itself. Did this happen in the book? If not, I propose that these two sentences be deleted from the article.

Bruno in Columbus 22:21, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

It's not in the book. It's another cinematic device. Rumiton 13:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Changes in Plot Summary and section on Paul Baumer

I expanded the section on Paul's visit home on leave, because I think it is a key event that highlights the ways in which the war has changed Paul. Also, I moved some material about the insignificance of individual battles (which was very good material) into the previous paragraph, where it seemed to fit more naturally. Finally, in the section on Main Characters, I deleted a phrase that suggested that Paul had little relationship with his mother. The expanded section on Paul's visit home suggests that he had a tender but restrained relationship with his mother, which I think is more accurate and is backed up with quotes from the book. Bruno in Columbus 01:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Exactly. Paul and his mother are both feeling the pain of belonging to a society and social class that does not openly express feelings. But they are there.Rumiton 13:58, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Tjaden

Does anyone know how Tjaden died in the end? I think he dies before Paul, but I am not to sure. The Wiggle Fish 11:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

To Wiggle Fish: Interestingly, after a glance I cannot find where Tjaden dies. And I've read this book many times over the years. The last reference I find is where Muller gives Paul his boots (the ones Kemmerich has at the beginning), and Paul promises them to Tjaden next if anything happens to himself... I had thought Tjaden died in the same 1918 battle where Lt Bertinck (the Co Commander) and Leer perish - but I cannot find it now...Anyway, Chap 12 begins with Paul's ruminating that he's the last of his class and that many "old hands" are left. This implies at least some "old hands" survive... Tjaden wasn't in Paul's school class, but he was an "old hand" so maybe he made it?? Remarque's follow-on book "The Road Back" suggests that other members of that unit survived, who remembered Paul and several others.Engr105th 00:21, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Tjaden survived the war, and appears as a minor character in "The Road Back". He marries a butcher's daughter for the food. (71.209.119.108 05:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC))

Thanks much for adding that tip. Somehow I never caught that Tjaden didn't die in All's Quiet... I actually have not read "The Road Back", just a summary of it. Is it any good?... Engr105th 22:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


Fixed the section on Tjaden. He does survive on 'The Road Back'. He's even mentioned in the first chapter, and shows up in other parts of the book. GondolaState 05:02, 28 Aug 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure that the two Tjadens are the same? In the article stands that he became a teacher post war - the Tjaden in "All Quiet on the Western Front" doesn't seem intelligent enough for me, remember the scene in the book where he asks why there must be war. 84.151.116.248 (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Paul's Leave at Home - Plot Summary

The wikipedia article has the following line in the last paragraph of the Plot Summary: "Paul's visit on leave to his home highlights the cost of the war on his psyche. The town was hit by artillery but has not changed since he went off to war..." (the boldface is mine) I have a Ballantine Books copy I'm reading now (translator: A.W. Wheen). I cannot find a passage indicating Paul's hometown was ever under artillery or other attack. No other copies I've read over the years - its one of my favorites - stated that either...In fact, homeland Germany escaped most if not all the fighting (which maybe contributed to a willingness to go into WW2). Anyway, WWI was not fought in Germany, at least not until the very end - long after Paul's return home on leave..... Should that line about artillery on Paul's hometown be taken out of the Wiki plot summary? Engr105th 22:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

It definitely should! Rumiton 12:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


Minor issues with the "Characters" paragraphs

Not to be nitpicking, but since some may use Wikipedia as a literary research source, I wanted to question the following:

Albert Kropp: it says "It was hinted that he died after the amputation." I am not certain of this. Obviously ALbert was morose and considering suicide. But he did not die from the amputation.

Haie Westhus (death): I cannot find indication in my copy of the book that Paul could "see his lungs" when he died. Its trivial, but still, if its indeed not in the book, should we take it out of the article ?

Leer: He is a minor character, but appears in several places and was Paul's schoolmate and another "old hand". Maybe he needs a blurb ?
Engr105th 22:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, Mea Culpa....the book does state Haie "drags off with a...wound in his back through which the lung pulses..." and Paul holds his hand.... My mistake; should have read it again before posting my opinion. Engr105th 00:57, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Kat: I could find no reference to Kat being homosexual right before he died . . . is this just me? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Greema3 (talk • contribs) 23:55, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Remarque's War Service

The National Socialists spread many rumours about Remarque; that he was Jewish, never fought in the army etc. It is surprising how tenacious this disinformation has proven. The following is from the Remarque Frieden-Zentrum, in his hometown of Osnabruck.

1917, 12. Juni: Verlegung an die Westfront zur 2. Kompanie Feld-Rekruten-Depot der 2. Garde-Reserve Division in Hem-Lenglet. 26. Juni: Zwischen Thorhut und Houthulst, Schanztrupp Bethe, 2. Kompanie Reserve Infanterie-Regiment 15. 31. Juli: Verwundung durch Granatsplitter am linken Bein, rechten Arm und am Hals.

My translation: 12 June, (1917.) Transferred to the Western Front, 2nd Company, Reserves, Field Depot of the 2nd Reserves Guards Division at Hem-Lenglet. 26 June. Stationed between Thorhut and Houthulst, Trench Batallion Bethe (Name of commander), 2nd Company of the 15th Reserve Infantry Regiment. 31 July. Wounded by shrapnel in the left leg, right arm and neck. (Repatriated to army hospital in Germany.) Rumiton 12:06, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Müller

Most of this section come from the movie, not the book. I don't have time right now to correct it. Anybody? Rumiton 10:38, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Plot Summary

The plot summary is not done, is anyone going to fix it? -000 19:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Reception in Allied countries

Although this book portrays the World War I experience as universal and not hinging on national loyalties, I would imagine that there was some opposition to it in the former Allied countries, considering how bitter wartime sentiments were. Or had they died down by 1929? Brutannica 05:38, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Hostile feelings had not greatly died down, as the Australian translator's failed attempts to get a native German speaker to assist in his translation show. As a result, the Wheen translation is filled with inaccurately translated colloquialisms. The book was considered very racy for its time for its frank sexual references, though again Wheen "accidentally" mistranslated the strongest of these to make them more acceptable. The book was immensely popular with British and US ex-soldiers for its glimpse into the other side's situation, and the universality you mention saved it from being officially banned. Ironically, the same universality eventually got it banned and indeed burned in Germany. I have found that most people were unaware that the book was originally written in German. Rumiton 10:47, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
In respopnse to Brutannica's question above, I kinda doubt there was a lot of opposition to the book in the US by that time at least. We were only in the war approx 1.5 years, versus the 4 yrs for the others...Also, Hollywood quickly made it into the classic 1930 movie...Rumitron, do you happen to know of a more accurate translation than Wheen's, or is he the definitive? Just curious...Engr105th 05:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I thought you would never ask. Rumiton's translation is much better. :D I am happy to post excerpts if you tell me a section you are interested in. Rumiton 11:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Before you post any excerpts - which might take up too much space - are you planning to publish a translation? Anybody that can come up with a more colloquially accurate version might generate some interest...Engr105th 18:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I can't. The English language translation rights are held by Random House, and they are unwilling to allow a translation that would compete with theirs. There is certainly interest in a new translation among academics, but they don't pay the bills. Rumiton 10:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Wow...for the record - or Wiki record, at least - I think thats Crazy...The book is 80 yrs old - and the writer, Remarque, has been dead almost 40 yrs...surely there's away around translating a classic like this?? I can think of several phrases or spots that could be better translated to American English Engr105th 01:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Buddy, if there IS a way around it and you can find it, I will be patheticly grateful. I spent years working on this project and more years trying to find a way to publish it. It isn't just a matter of several phrases, the original is a work of genius, and the whole mood of the translation is clumsy and wrong. Other competing modern translations (eg Murdoch) are a little better, but not much. Let me know how you go. Rumiton 11:21, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistency with Kropp's Character

From the "Main characters" section: "Though Kropp initially planned to suicide if he required an amputation, the book suggests he eventually decides against it. Kropp and Bäumer part ways when Bäumer is recalled to his regiment after recovering." "He is thus the last of Paul's close friends to die in battle (for it can be assumed that Albert Kropp died [*see above])" These two sentences seem to contradict each other. Does anyone know which claim is more correct? Rapidflash 21:43, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

We don't know what happened to Kropp, apart from losing "his entire leg," which obviously finished his army service, and threatening suicide. Not all Baumer's original friends died in battle, we just read they were not with him at the end. Remember that at least one had been institutionalised. Presumably at the Armistice, Kropp was back in Germany in a hospital. Rumiton 07:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:All Quiet on the Western Front/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

no mention of Paul, the main character, in the section of the novel's characters.

Last edited at 10:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 20:11, 2 May 2016 (UTC)

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