Talk:Aldergrove, Langley

Wrong Location

The marker for Aldergrove is currently located at N49 14.54, W121 45.48 . This is near Agassiz. I would suggest N49 3.25, W122 28.33. --Russdirks (talk) 01:27, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

town/neighbourhood

This discussion should probably take place at WP:CANTALK or at CANGEOG or WPBC maybe, as there are other cases likes this. I'm from the Valley, Aldergrove is most decidedly a town; your assertion that wikipedia defines anything inside a municipality is a "neighbourhood" is questionable, and if that's the case that guideline needs an overhaul and some fact-checking on the ground. Within the Township of Langley, there's clearly also the town of Fort Langley.....areas like Willowbrook are "neighbourhoods", Aldergrove and Fort Langley are clearly "towns". Within Abbotsford there are also towns - Matsqui, Clayburn, Kinnaird though other areas like Clearbrook were (until they became strip malls) considered rural areas. Huntingdon has pretty much vanished as it was. Chilliwack contains the identifiable towns of Yarrow and Sardis and Cultus Lake and Greendale - no reliable source would refer to any of these as "neighbourhood"; Rosedale maybe though like Clearbrook it was always a rural community mostly. In the case of Agassiz, it's decidedly a town within the District of Kent and Haney, British Columbia is clearly a town within Maple Ridge. Similarly within Surrey there's Cloverdale, which is a lot more than a neighbourhood, and likewise Ladner and Tsawwassen within Delta. "levelling" regular English into Wiki-English sets questionable precedents for the language .... and will influence local idiom usage, rather than obey it. Relegating a town into a neighbourhood because it's inside a municipality makes no sense whatsoever, if the place is always spoken of as a town.....the word "town" outside of municipalities is also highly necessary; we would not refer to Yale or Boston Bar or Spences Bridges as "neighbourhoods" of the Fraser Canyon.....Skookum1 (talk) 02:26, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

According to a GIS shapefile I downloaded from the Township of Langley's open data site a year ago, the following nine places within the ToL are "communities" with their own boundaries (neither "neighbourhoods" or "towns"):

• Fort Langley
• Northwest Langley
• Walnut Grove
• Murrayville
• Brookswood / Fernridge
• Aldergrove
• Gloucester
• Willoughby
• Willowbrook

Aldergrove, Fort Langley and Gloucester are physically removed from the six others, while they along with the City of Langley are clustered together.

If Aldergrove is not incorporated as a "town" or designated by some other official means as a town, then this article should not refer to it as one, even in the colloquial sense of "town" being another word for "community" instead of an municipal status. Why? Because it can therefore be interpreted as being an incorporated "town" when it is not. Bottom line, it looks like Aldergrove and the others within the ToL should be referred to as "communities" per the designation applied by the ToL. Hwy43 (talk) 07:51, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

And furthermore, if Aldergrove was never previously incorporated as a "town" (municipal status) in its history, it should not be referred to as an "historic town" either. Hwy43 (talk) 07:53, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

That was a compromise to avoid a 3RR as we'd been changing 'town' and 'neighbourhood' back and forth; and yes it is historic as a town, because of its history and distinct identity, albeit not as an incorporated capital-T Town (unlike the former Town of Mission City, now part of the District of Mission). And I dispute that "community" is a adequate for somewhere with an identifiable downtown core and a definite "town" feel when it can also be used to describe a completely rural place like Glen Valley (not on the ToL's list, which says a lot about their reliability as a source of historical and geographic validity) or Bradner or Silverdale. Agassiz's referred to properly as a town, but not as a capital-T Town. IF you're going to be so hard about that definition then it would behoove you to support changes to CANMOS such that when the phrase "city of Vancouver" is used it should be capital-C (especially when it's the civic institution/government that's being referred to). Wikipedia's fiddling with the language by this game of definitions has an impact on reality, it doesn't reflect reality despite the much-vaunted WP:RS..........the ToL is a proper source for its own definition of 'community'" and what those are, but it is NOT a reliable source for arguments about whether or not a town has to be incorporated before it can be called such. And that's a fact.Skookum1 (talk) 09:08, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, let's follow WP:BRD and discuss then. However, I do actually agree with Hwy43 that if they are not incorporated as towns then they should not be referred to as one. Then it is not an historical town, but rather a historical community/neighbourhood. Regarding Vancouver, see WP:OTHERSTUFF (not a valid argument to provide) and let's on topic here. Anyways, "the city of Vancouver" because it is incorporated as a city and that's the name; the capital-C is for government purposes. There are no reliable sources stating that this is a town, but it is reliable to believe it is a "community" or "neighborhood" because it is not incorporated. TBrandley 14:02, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Aldergrove is a well-known town, one of many such regional centres within the district municipalities of the Fraser Valley, and they were there before suburbanization and metropolitanization. Aldergrove, Fort Langley, Matsqui, Clayburn, Huntingdon, Yarrow were all called towns, and still are; no reliable sources?? I don't think you've read the regional or provincial media, then, TBrandley; and a brief google turned up <quote>"Information about the town of Aldergrove | LangleyBC.net www.langleybc.net/communities/aldergrove/ - CachedAldergrove is a town located in the Township of Langley – which is within the municipality of Metro Vancouver. Abbotsford is next to Aldergrove to the east and ..."</quote> I don't know how RS langleybc.net is (it's not, note the app spam) but this google's entries indicate how many local people and organizations consider it a a town. Want to find it in the Vancouver Sun, if you feel only mainstream media are RS, then by all means do, you will. I don't think you've actually looked, and it's clear to me you don't know anything about the place in question. You'll also hear "town of Ladner" and "town of Tsawwassen" even though both of those are in the Corporation of Delta. This is not a "neighbourhood" it's also big enough and with enough of a town core to have its own neighbourhoods.Skookum1 (talk) 16:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

This edit blew my mind for its arrogance "you can't call ever place a "town", only if incorporated, let's stay technical)".. . you're the one who is enforcing a technicality that has no bearing on content; WP:MOSFOLLOW applies here, your opinion as to how "town" here should be used DOESN'T. Small-case t-town is a word in the English language that has multiple meanings; in British Columbia it happened to have been used for a Municipal Act designation like capital-V Village, capital-C Corporation and Capital-D District but it still has its regular meaning....what I'm hearing is ridiculous. TBrandley, you live in BC, your userpage says, but you're from the UK....have you ever driven out to Aldergrove? Ever met anyone from there? Hell, you claim RS can't be found for the "town of Aldergrove" or "Aldergrove is a town in Langley near the Abby border", then you must not be reading any local media.......btw in Alaska, even a place with 50 people in it is called a city....Alaska has no towns.....but describing Saxman or Hyder as a City is a technicality only a rules-obsessed Wikipedian could delight in enforcing. Tweaking words and harmonizing articles with rule-sets....does anyone actually write any articles any more?Skookum1 (talk) 17:05, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Aldergrove is designated a "community" according to the ToL[1][2][3] and GeoBC. It is furthermore classified as a "rural community" by the province. It does not matter what locals call it or the media calls it. Personal research/preference, POV or a subjective "feel" does not trump what it actually is, while the media is notorious for using the incorrect terms or colloquial terms for communities rather than their correct ones. A headline in Sherwood Park's weekly newspaper reading "Scots in town for curling clash" does not make it appropriate to refer to Sherwood Park as a town in a fact-based encyclopedia. It is an urban service area. The official designations/classifications/what-have-you are factual and much more reliable than a newspaper incorrectly referring to Aldergrove as a town in one article, then a neighbourhood in a different article the following day and then an village in an article a week later. As for this edit, pardon my bluntness, but referring to it as a "town-like community" is not an appropriate compromise. Hwy43 (talk) 03:20, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

The ToL's self-definition of its subcommunities is not the only possible citation, nor is it authoritative; it doesn't incluce other long-standing neighbourhoods of the Township, e.g. Glen Valley, British Columbia which is in the NE corner adjacent to Bradner (formerly part of the District of Matsqui, now part of the City of Abbotsford). That's probably in their "Fort Langley community" but it's not part of Fort Langley. I used "town-like community" because I was tired of the back-and-forth with TBrandley changing it from "town" all the time; even tough "town of Aldergrove" is "Aldergrove is a town in the Fraser Valley" is easy enough to find cites for, including in RS like the media. I repeat, what a municipality chooses to subdivide itself as does not equate with historic identities/communities....in Mission, Genstar almost got away with wiping Silverhill off the map....and was faced with loud opposition from the residents of Silverdale and Silverhill; the DoM would have gone along with Genstar if not for self-identification and its assertion. And then there's Hatzic, British Columbia, which like Ruskin is only partly in the DoM; it should never be Hatzic, Mission.Skookum1 (talk) 03:40, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

I continue to disagree re: the ToL's designation not being authoritative, and see that the province's designation, which I consider even more authoritative and reliable, has been disregarded. This is puzzling since I know you frequently rely on GeoBC in discussions.

To briefly nibble on Glen Valley since you brought it up, it is also a community according to GeoBC and a "rural community" according to the province.

Since you only changed it to "town-like" because you were tired, I'd prefer it being removed per the concern expressed above regarding 3RR and a desire for BRD until this discussion closes. We may be able to arrive at a much more appropriate alternative through this discussion while not making the opening sentence look silly in the meantime. Hwy43 (talk) 05:03, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

As does calling it a "neighbourhood" when it's clearly a small "town=like" mini-urban area. It's called "community" in BC Names in order to conform to the Gazetteer of BC, and those are neologistic designations related to the confusions caused by the terms used by the Municipal Act. And if "community" applies to Glen Valley as if it were the same kind of place as Aldergrove which it's definitely not, then that term has big problems on accuracy. "Aldergrove" as a "neighbourhood" also includes adjoining areas of Abbotsford (it's pretty much just west of the boundary) but those areas are now called by Abby "Mount Lehman", which properly (historically) is north of there......same as the absurdity of calling Matsqui Village a "neighbourhood" of the City of Abbotsford....."community" I can deal with, though qualification in each case is needed. Kent Prairie is a rural community (no downtown focus) in Kent, but Agassiz is decidedly "a town within Kent".Skookum1 (talk) 05:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Here are the facts.

1. Is Aldergrove classified as a community by the Township of Langley and GeoBC? Yes.[4][5]
2. Is Aldergrove urban in nature? Yes.
3. Is it incorporated as a town? No.
4. Despite not being incorporated as such, is it often referred to as a town? Yes.

I'm going to rewrite the lead to reflect all these facts. Hwy43 (talk) 04:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

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