Talk:Alan, Count of Nantes (988–990)

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Title[edit]

Given the existence of four other Alans who were Duke of Brittany, this title is clearly unacceptable. Srnec (talk) 06:33, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It reflects the fact that this Alan is rarely considered in the numbering of the Dukes of Brittany and, therefore, cannot have an ordinal without messing up the traditional numbering scheme. It is similar to the situation of Charles the Fat, who is not numbered among the French kings despite indisputably having been one briefly. – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 21:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing the point. The current title is ambiguous: the numbered Alans were also all "Alan, Duke of Brittany". Does the cited work by Chédeville and Tonnerre use any numeral at all? "Charles the Fat", the title of the page, is not ambiguous. Srnec (talk) 21:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I largely translated the page from the French version and have only been able to check one of the sources. I believe they named him "Alain de Nantes". The name of the article, though, was derived from both red links and the name of the French and Breton articles as "Alain de Bretagne" and "Alan Breizh" ("Alan of Brittany"), while the less-relevant Catalan and Russian pages name him "Alan III of Nantes". While it is certainly not a preferred name, I am not sure what other name would be a better option. Alan III of Nantes seems a bit too original research-y. I suppose it could be named "Alan, Duke of Brittan (988-990)". – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 01:12, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'd prefer something like "Alan, son of Guerech" or "Alan, Count of Nantes (988–90)". Indisputably correct. I have not seen a source myself that makes him a Duke of Brittany, but I have not read Chédeville and Tonnerre, which seems like the main work on this period in Breton history. Srnec (talk) 02:15, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I have time, I will try to check a few of the English-language books and see what they call him (if he's even mentioned). This always seems to be the problem with pretenders and de jure rulers who are nonetheless later dis-recognised. "Alan, son of Guerech" would be my preferred name of those two, but other academic opinions would be preferred. I'll add it to my to-do- list for tomorrow. – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 06:00, 13 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Follow-up: I checked the university library here and none of their books mention Alain, but only one even mentions Guerech. In fact, two don't list any dukes during this period at all and just skip over the period without comment, which is not helpful. I think we can all agree that Brittany was in a bit of a chaotic state during this period. The only one that sort of mentioned him just called all the rulers of this period "Count of Nantes", so perhaps going with the "Alan, Count of Nantes (988-990)" is the best option. At a fundamental level, "Count of Nantes" is actually the official title of the rulers of Brittany during this time, at least according to France. It was only when Brittany entered the peerage that it was recognised officially as a duchy. Between the fall of the kingdom and the elevation to a dukedom, it was named many various things, but the counts of Nantes were generally the rulers of at least some of it. So I vote for "Alan, Count of Nantes (988-990)". – Whaleyland (Talk • Contributions) 03:10, 14 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ordinal Number[edit]

The lead to the article claims that Alan is sometimes referred to as "Alan II of Brittany" but the final sentence of his biography claims his ordinal number conflicts with Alan III of Brittany. The French article from which I believe this is translated only uses Alan II. Which is correct? I could find no mention of either title in the referenced English sources which I could find online. It is possible they feature in the French sources, would someone be able to check that? --KingUther (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]