Talk:Ahmad Zahir/Archive 3

Ethnic background

I've restored the reference to him being Pashtun, based on the statement in a WP:RS that "He was an ethnic Pashtun, but most of his songs are in Dari or Persian." (source) If there are other reliable sources with contrary views, then we should consider them. It's difficult to assess how much weight we should give to the book you cite. Are there any other non-primary sources you can point to? BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 18:47, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Yes, there are but the problem is that none of them are in English. On top of that all the articles done by the BBC in English make absolutely no reference to him being an ethnic Pashtun. As I said, we even have a video statement in Persian from his close friend and biographer Safiullah Sabat stating him to be an ethnic Tajik born in Kabul with origins from Laghman . What you posted to be a reliable source isn't one since there is no reference or source in that reference from someone who actually personally knew him and his family supporting the claim of him being Pashtun in the article whereas the book source I posted is from a contemporary of his father and a noted historian . What's so difficult to assess about that and how would that not be solid and reliable proof? I can translate the source if necccesary.AFGFactChecker (talk) 18:55, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

References

As I mentioned in the edit summary, arguing over Zahir's ethnicity is not useful for the sake of this page, and it is certainly not an encyclopedic way of presenting the information. His ethnicity is only relevant to those for whom ethnic politics in the country are relevant, and this type of dispute has no place on Wikipedia. If you disagree with my edit and wish to re-impose your personal preference on the topic, please discuss it here, as that is the point of the talk page. Do not repeatedly revert and reassert your personal views. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

It is not my personal view Mr Daivd. What is so difficult for you to understand that we have actual valid sources from a book written by contemporary of his father (the historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang) as well as video clips from his close friend and oral biographer Safiullah Sabat stating his father and him to be ethnic Tajiks? How on earth is that not encyclopedic? Almost every page on Wikipedia regarding figures from Afghanistan includes their ethnicity, I myself have even added an ethnic background to some singers such as Farhad Darya, Aryana Saed, and Naim Popal who previously did not have their Pashtun ethnicity written on their page and I included them as Pashtun. You should at the very least be consistent with your flawed logic.AFGFactChecker (talk) 01:18, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: I have reverted your most recent edits to the article because you did not cite any sources in your edits. You must engage in discussion here and may not change the article until consensus is reached here. —C.Fred (talk) 14:08, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

That is blatantly false, I did cite sources in my edit, take a look . I have been trying to engage in discussion but nobody seems to be able to be willing to engage in a serious discussion. AFGFactChecker (talk) 15:23, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

References

Neither of those sources were present in your edit. —C.Fred (talk) 16:32, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

The video has been taken down on copyright grounds, so there is no way to verify the video. However, the publisher, Informational Video, has no other content nor a description of itself, so the video would not pass WP:RS. The image from the book is not machine-readable, so I can't attempt to machine-translate it. That'll be dependent on an editor who can read Persian. —C.Fred (talk) 16:35, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

That's because they were included in previous edits and weren't deleted by the other user so there was no need to include sources twice. I had no idea about the video being taken down. There are other platforms such as Facebook that contain the same video content so would it be okay if I posted that? Is machine-readable images a requirement for cited book references? if so how would I go about doing that? Like you said the source would definitely be easily verifiable by an editor that can read Persian. AFGFactChecker (talk) 21:54, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: As a general rule, videos hosted at Facebook are not reliable—or, they're only as reliable as the page that hosts them and produces them. —C.Fred (talk) 23:13, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh ok thank you for the explanation, I'll post the link to the Facebook video here on the talk page from two different pages, and if agreed as reliable (which I don't see why it wouldn't be), I'll post it along with the book reference I had already included. [1] [2] AFGFactChecker (talk) 23:23, 25 March 2021 (UTC)

One of the Facebook accounts is for a musician; that account is clearly not reliable. The other one...it's not verified, so I'm dubious about it. —C.Fred (talk) 02:22, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Why would it being verified matter or not if the content shared is from a reliable source i.e a video of his closest friend (Safiuallah Sabat صفی الله ثبات) giving a biographical account? As long as the video and source are authentic and reliable why the platform/media through which it's being shared be relevant? He's even been on Tolo News which is one of Afghanistan's biggest and most reliable news networks to discuss his life as well as on a TV show to do a short mini-documentary on his life . You can't get more reliable of a source than that. Keep in mind this is all in addition to the cited book reference from his father's contemporary and professional historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang (محمد صدیق فرهنگ). AFGFactChecker (talk) 02:51, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

How do we know this video is of his closest friend? The videos on the Bahar TV-AF account might require more investigation; that might be a television production house (in which case, thanks to them for releasing the video on YouTube). —C.Fred (talk) 03:00, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

What do you mean? He's been on Tolo News as well as many other programs to discuss his life and was lifelong friends with him from youth until he passed away even living in the same living quarters as him for a long time. It doesn't get more authoritative than that . All this confusion can be solved by simply having someone knowledgeable in Persian watch and read the sources I've cited multiple times. It's impossible to find a more reliable source about his background than for a cited book written by a historian and contemporary of his father as well as video reports from his closest friend. AFGFactChecker (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

How do we know he's been on Tolo News? Unless Tolo News posts the video, we take any other YouTube channel with a grain of salt. (Videos can be manipulated.) —C.Fred (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

That channel is literally a program show of Tolo i.e the equivalent of the Rachel Maddow Show on MSNBC or Tucker Carlson on Fox. Like you admittedly mentioned that video I originally posted even got taken down via copyright by Tolo since it wasn't produced by their channel i.e this . If possible please find someone who is knowledgeable in Persian and Afghanistan to resolve this dispute.AFGFactChecker (talk) 03:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Persian-language skills would help verify the book mentioned earlier. As for the videos, this is a matter where Wikipedia policies on copyrights and reliable sources must be followed, and those issues overshadow the language one. —C.Fred (talk) 12:39, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The videos linked haven't been taken down for copyright, unlike the original link I had posted so I don't see where the issue would be with that and why wouldn't the videos not be considered reliable sources considering everything mentioned above? They are from a reliable source i.e a close longtime friend and published by Tolo among other outlets. AFGFactChecker (talk) 19:44, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: Sources in textual form can be translated into English and WP:VERIFIED. I have verified that man in that video above is indeed his close friend (his name is Safiullah Sobat) but the rest of claims are hard to verify. YT isn't WP:RS-abiding in this case. Please, provide sources in English or if you can't, please make an effort to translate (textual) sources by yourself (per WP:NOENG): {{cite}} the source with |trans-quote= param for that.

References

I'll definitely make sure to translate the book reference from his fathers contemporary and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang regarding their family background but why wouldn't the videos from FB and YT be considered verified reliable sources considering you've confirmed what I've been saying all along via an English article that he is his closest friend? — Preceding unsigned comment added by AFGFactChecker (talk • contribs) 22:29, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: You also may opt to translate a quote, rather than a full source.

@AFGFactChecker: ... why wouldn't the videos from FB and YT be considered ... reliable source General consensus is such that YT/FB videos aren't considered secondary sources (WP:SECONDARY) in most cases and in yours - in particular (assuming we are proving ethnicity). Using them you risk breaching WP:OR (original research) policy. Take a look at following topics to get the point:

• Wikipedia:RSPFB - Part of WP:RS policy
• Wikipedia:RSPYT - The same
• RS/Noticeboard#YouTube
• RS/Noticeboard#Can YouTube video (having more than 100K views) be used as references for notability --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 07:48, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be considered a primary source since it is coming from his closest friend Safiullah Sobat? If the problem is the platform i.e Facebook or Youtube, then what would be considered an acceptable platform through which to post videos. Btw I've seen a lot of YT videos posted throughout Wikipedia so this doesn't seem to be a very strict rule if there is consensus regarding it. Even this very article currently includes a FB link as well as YT if you check the reference section. AFGFactChecker (talk) 08:18, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: If it's a primary source from Sobat, then it would only be valid for statements about Sobat. Further, how can we back up the assertion that Sobat is Zahir's closest friend? That argument doesn't hold water. —C.Fred (talk) 18:57, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Under that logic, this page and most pages wouldn't even exist since none of the information comes directly from Ahmad Zahir himself. Another user literally verified what I've been saying all along via an English source that he is Zahir's close friend. Once again to repeat if someone who actually knows Persian would watch the videos including the Tolo segment they could easily verify that he was Zahirs friend for 22 years until the day he died. To give an analogy trying to deny this is like the equivalent of saying we can't back up the assertion that MLK and and Ralph Abernathy were close friends. The only difference between these two cases being Zahir and Sobat not being Western English speakers. Once again, please find somebody actually knowledgeable in Persian and Afghanistan.AFGFactChecker (talk) 22:09, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: You misunderstand. Most pages exist because they are based on secondary sources, independent of the subject of the article. The claims of the subject's best friend don't hold water—besides, we'd need a secondary source to support the claim that he is the subject's friend. —C.Fred (talk) 00:53, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: How on earth would they not hold water? In addition to the primary sources themselves I've literally sent countless secondary sources verifying that he's his close friend of 22 years and another user even further verified it using an English article but yet you keep on bringing up this baseless point over and over again. Scroll up on the page in case you missed it. Is your standard that you want Ahmad Zahir himself to come back from the dead and confirm it to you in person in perfect American English? Once again I beg you to find someone knowledgeable in Persian or Afghanistan because I'm apparently not doing a good job at explaining things. AFGFactChecker (talk) 01:46, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: I guess it's technically countless sources, if I can't count any secondary sources on the page, nor see where anybody endorsed your claim. —C.Fred (talk) 02:01, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Did you scroll up? User Alexander Davronov wrote this (This is in addition to the Tolo Program along with all the other Persian sources I posted)

"@AFGFactChecker: Sources in textual form can be translated into English and WP:VERIFIED. I have verified that man in that video above[1] is indeed his close friend (his name is Safiullah Sobat[8])" AFGFactChecker (talk) 02:31, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: I provided the source that proves the friendship: Revision as of 07:48, March 27, 2021

@AFGFactChecker: You may use colons to intend your replies: WP:INDENT --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 10:30, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: I didn't see an independent source in that diff. Please provide a specific link in your next reply (no need to enclose it in ref tags). —C.Fred (talk) 13:11, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: That revision is wrong. The link is the following: Burning love: Afghan Elvis's legacy endures, decades after death --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 14:51, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: And that source says "Zahir -- an ethnic Pashtun..." Do I take it that you want a statement to that effect added to the article? —C.Fred (talk) 15:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC) amended 16:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Well.., look. I'm a different user here: Alexander Davronov not the AFGFactChecker (check out the history). I came across this conversation after visiting WP:ANI board. I took an effort in providing source in English as I witnessed nobody cared enough to do that. Feel free to do whatever you feel the best. Regards --AXONOV (talk) ⚑ 16:15, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@Alexander Davronov: Sorry about that. Thank you for providing the source.

@AFGFactChecker: The source provided by Alexander Davronov is in a reliable secondary source and says he's ethnic Pashtun. We'll need sources of similar or better quality to show something different for the ethnicity. That doesn't include statements by his best friend, but it would include a biography written with contributions from him, provided it's published by a reputable publisher. —C.Fred (talk) 16:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: How on earth would a primary source from his best friend (in video format and thank you for stopping the denial of their relationship once you got an English source even though I had posted several in Persian) not be a quality source? The source that was provided correctly defines their relationship but provides absolutely no reference for the claim of him being Pashtun i.e in the form of a direct quote from a friend or family member and is evidence of how secondary sources aren't infallible specifically when they'e written in English regarding a forgien topic (Afghanistan). Like I said earlier though even every article published by the BBC in English makes no reference to him being an ethnic Pashtun . Every primary source in Persian i.e video biography from his best friend Safiuallah Sobat and book reference from his fathers contemporary and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang stating them to be ethnic Tajiks is the highest quality source we have available unless Ahmad Zahir himself came back from the dead and stated it to you in perfect American English. AFGFactChecker (talk) 21:20, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: Because it is a primary source: there is no editorial review, no pre-publication editing. As for the biography by Farhang, I can't vet that, because you've sent a photocopy of a page from the book. Somebody with access to the book would have to verify it. —C.Fred (talk) 21:44, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: Ok so clearly this back and forth between us is getting us nowhere and so for the sake of not wanting to further waste more of either of our times on this I'm willing to permanently keep the article as is with no reference at all to his ethnic background until somebody with knowledge of Afghanistan and Persian can help arbitrate this dispute on sources. Best regards. AFGFactChecker (talk) 21:54, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred: I ended up finding an additional reliable source (once again in Persian though) from a program/documentary on Tolo Tv's official Youtube channel stating Ahmad Zahir to be from the Tajiks of Laghman in addition to the previous 2 references of Safiuallah Sobat and Mohammad Sediq Farhang, would this suffice to allow me to include his Tajik background in the article? If not ignore this message and like I said before until someone else with knowledge of Persian and Afghanistan can arbitrate we can keep the article permanently as-is. AFGFactChecker (talk) 04:57, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: If there are conflicting repoarts about his ethnicity, then I think that Revirvlkodlaku may have the best suggestion of what to do: omit it entirely. —C.Fred (talk) 18:58, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

Revirvlkodlaku, C.Fred, AFGFactChecker, I agree. Given the conflicting sources, best to just leave ethnicity out. BubbaJoe123456 (talk) 19:08, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@C.Fred:@BubbaJoe123456: Well I disagree about the conflicting sources since every reliable source in Persian states him to be an Ethnic Tajik (The Tolo Tv documentary, close friend Safiuallah Sobat, his fathers contemporary, and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang) and even in English every article by BBC English makes no mention of him having a Pashtun ethnicity. The only English sources that do mention that provide no reference in the form of a source or direct quote from a family member or friend so it can be regarded as a typical foreigner mistake considering how many credible sources we have in Persian. That being said I'm more than willing to agree to keep this page as-is with no mention of his ethnicity at all if it means not having to go back and forth on this. AFGFactChecker (talk) 21:17, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

C.Fred, it appears AFGFactChecker is up to their usual antics once more, as soon as their block was lifted. They have been reasserting their previous edits and they are right back to edit warring with me. Revirvlkodlaku (talk) 13:56, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

C.Fred no I haven't Revirvlkodlaku is being incredibly stupid. Some other user from a random IP address added the detail that Ahmad Zahir sang a song in Russian and which I ended up restoring that contribution after I researched and saw that he did indeed sing a song in Russian and I even included a new section in the talk page with a source but yet this guy has the nerve to accuse me of edit warring when I invited him to disagree on that new talk section if he believes that Ahmad Zahir did in fact not sing a song in Russian. AFGFactChecker (talk) 21:17, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: @C.Fred: @BubbaJoe123456:

As requested, I am here at the talk page. The long post below should end this ridiculous discussion and blatant attempt by AFGFactChecker to perpetuate falsehood. Initially, I was fine with leaving ethnicity out of this, but after doing research over the last couple of days, I am 100% certain that the ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir is Pashtun.

So, we have already discussed English language sources and for some reason AFGFactChecker seems to have a problem with the authenticity of those. So, let's move on to Persian and Pashto language sources. Since AFGFactChecker is always referencing picture of a page in a book that is written in Persian/Dari, I assume AFGFactChecker can read Farsi. AFGFactChecker incorrectly mentioned above that "all the articles done by the BBC in English as well as Persian make absolutely no reference to him being an ethnic Pashtun." So what do you have to say to the below?

https://www.bbc.com/persian/arts/story/2003/12/031206_pm-zahir

It clearly says:

".با وجود اينکه احمد ظاهر پشتون بود ولی بيشتر ترانه ای او به فارسی است"

Which translates to:

"Although Ahmad Zahir was a Pashtun, most of his songs are in Farsi/Persian."

Ok, so now we have the Persian language source that you claimed didn't exist. Let's move onto Pashto language sources. I do not know if you can read Pashto or not, so I will break it down for you piece by piece and translate it. This is an authentic source and it includes audio from interviews done by Ahmad Zahir himself and quotes from friends and colleagues including Khalil Ragheb (worked with Ahmad Zahir as a vocalist for 8 years), Abdullah Shadan (close friend of Ahmad Zahir and former head of Radio Afghanistan), and many others.

https://www.bbc.com/pashto/afghanistan-44439716

Article Title in Pashto: "احمد ظاهر ولې پښتو سندرې کمې ویلې دي؟"

Article Title Translation to English: "Why did Ahmad Zahir sing very few Pashto songs?"

There is a whole section of this article titled "زما مورنۍ ژبه پښتو ده" which translates to "My mother tongue is Pashto". This is a direct quote from Ahmad Zahir during an interview with the Afghan National Radio and Television conducted by Dawood Farani. There is even recorded audio of this interview that you can listen to. After recording his first Pashto song, the interviewer mentioned that Ahmad Zahir sang a Pashto song after he sang three Persian songs first. Ahmad Zahir's response was (audio starts at the 10 second mark):

"شما می فهمید که زبان مادری من پشتو است"

This translates to:

"You all know that my mother tongue is Pashto"

For good measure, the article also includes a copy of the script written in Pashto.

"ما له ډېرې مودې راپدېخوا تصمیم درلود پښتو سندره ووایم، تاسې پوهېږئ چې زما مورنۍ ژبه پښتو ده، او پښتو سندرې ویلو سره مینه لرم"

This translates to: "I have been planning/wanting to sing a Pashto song for a long time. You all know that my mother tongue is Pashto and I love to sing in Pashto"

Then comes a section titled "پښتو سندرې یې ولې کمې دي؟"

This translates to "Why are the Pashto songs few in number?"

Abduallah Shadan, a close friend of Ahmad Zahir and former head of Radio Afghanistan is quoted in the article saying the below. Additionally there is a video of the 3 minute interview with these quotes in the BBC Pashto article. For the full reference, please watch the whole video. The highlights are below:

عبدالله شادان بیا دا کومه نوې خبره نه بولي چې پښتون سندرغاړې دې لږ پښتو سندرې ویلې وي. ښاغلی شادان وايي " یو څه له یاده ونه باسو چې د افغانستان یو شمېر وتلي سندرغاړي اصلاً پښتانه دي، خو اکثریت یې فارسي سندرې ویلې دي، مثلاً احمدولي ته وګورئ، چې په خټه محمدزی دی، خو ډېری سندرې یې فارسي/ دري دي. تاسې ناشناس وګورئ چې پښتون دی، خو د پښتو برابر یې دري سندرې ویلي. تاسې استاد خیال وګورئ چې محمدزی پښتون دی خو د سندرو قاطع اکثریت یې فارسي دري دي او پښتو یې لږ ویلي دي. همداسې نینواز ته وګورئ. دا په دې معنا نه ده چې پښتو سندرې یې نه دي‌ ویلي".

د ښاغلي شادان په اند که دې مسلې ته د تاریخي واقعیت په توګه وکتل شي، ډېرې پوښتنې ځوابېږي. دی وايي " یو څه چې د افغانستان په تاریخ کې پېښ شوي دا دي چې، د ابدالي دولت له تاسیس تر اوسه اکثراً د هېواد مشران پښتانه ول، خو د دوی او د دربار ژبه فارسي وه. تاسې د احمدشاه بابا دربار ته وګورئ، ټول فرمانونه یې په فارسي‌ دي. او یو شمېر هغه خلک دي چې له مشهداو نیشاپوره یې راوستلي ول. د دربار ژبه هر وخت فارسي وه. ډېری پښتانه شاهان آن په پښتو غږېدلی نه شوای."

This translates to:

Abdullah Shadan says that it is not a new phenomenon that Pashtun singers sing few Pashto songs. Don't forget that some of Afghanistan's most famous singers are Pashtuns, but the majority of their songs are in Dari/Persian. For example, take Ahmad Wali who is a Mohammadzai (Pashtun tribe name). Most of his songs are in Dari/Persian. Another example is Nashenas (stage name of singer Sadiq Fitrat Habibi**) who sings a mix/even number of Dari/Persian and Pashto songs. Look at Ustad Khayal, who is Mohammadzai (Pashtun tribe name) but the vast majority of his songs are Persian/Dari. Look at Nainawaz. Just because he didn't sing many Pashto songs doesn't mean he isn't Pashtun.

According to Mr. Shadan since the establishment of the Abdali (Durrani) government, most of the country's leaders have been Pashtuns, but their language and the language of the court was Dari/Persian. Look at Ahmad Shah Baba's (Ahmad Shah Durrani/Abdali, father of Afghanistan) court, all of his decrees were in Persian. The language of the king's court was always Persian. In fact, most Pashtun kings could not even speak Pashto.

• Note: Nashenas' tribe is Kakar, a Pashtun tribe in southern Afghanistan. The quote does not include this info, I am adding it.

Ok, so now we have a Persian language source (BBC Persian) and a Pashto language source (BBC Pashto). For good measure, let's continue to add more sources. Radio Mashaal is a member of Radio Free Europe in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

https://www.mashaalradio.com/a/28810947.html

Article Title in Pashto: "احمد ظاهر یو لیجنډ سندرغاړی"

Article Title in English: "Ahmad Zahir: A Legendary Singer"

This article includes a recording of a podcast called "سندرې جادوګرې" which means "Magical Songs". The podcast is hosted by renowned Pashto language artist and employee of Mashal Radio, Haroon Bacha. At the 3:55 minute mark mark, it says verbatim that his family is from Laghman and they are Pashtun.

Additionally, the second written line of the text says:

"نوموړی که څه هم په خټه پښتون وو، په دري ژبه ويلې سندرې یې په ولس کې خورا زياتې مقبولې شوې دي"

This translates to:

"Although he is Pashtun by birth, his songs in Dari are the most popular."

Another source, which is Wikipedia in Pashto

https://ps.wikipedia.org/wiki/احمد_ظاهر

In the second section of the article titled "مخينه" which translates to background, it clearly says:

"احمد ظاهر د ډاکټر عبدالظاهر زوی او په ۱۳۲۴ ل. کال کې د کابل په نوي ښار کې زېږدلی دی. نوموړی د لغمان اصلي اوسېدونکی او په خټه پښتون دی"

Which translates to:

"Ahmad Zahir is the son of Dr. Abdul Zahir. He was born in Shahr Naw (new city) district of Kabul. Originally, he is from Laghman and by birth he is Pashtun."

To top it all off, below you will find multiple reputable english language sources mentioning the ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir being Pashtun. For some reason AFGFactChecker has a problem with these sources and categorically states that ALL of them are somehow incorrect in saying Zahir's ethnicity is Pashtun. These sources are from the US, UK, and the Middle East. They are from reputable and established newspapers and broadcasting companies that have combined hundreds of years worth of reporting. Additionally, there is also Gandhara which is the go-to source for English-language reporting done by a vast network of local journalists across Afghanistan and Pakistan. More important than these english sources are the Farsi/Persian/Dari and Pashto language sources we have already seen above.

https://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/20/world/kabul-journal-the-afghan-elvis-lives-24-years-after-his-death.html

https://gandhara.rferl.org/a/afghan-singer-s-legacy-continues-at-home-and-abroad/29570627.html

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/28/afghanistan.arts

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2019/10/10/evergreen-afghan-elviss-legacy-endures-decades-after-death

Bottom Line:

Enough is enough. There are more than enough sources provided here to conclude that the ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir and his family is Pashtun. The sources included above are many in number and they are of a variety that is indisputable. They include, but are not limited to English language sources, Persian language sources, Pashto language sources, Persian/Dari language interviews with associates and friends of Ahmad Zahir, and to top it all off we even have a recording of Ahmad Zahir himself saying he is Pashtun. Let's end this nonsense please...

(talk) 02:46, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@WikiEditUsername7: @C.Fred: @BubbaJoe123456:

Ok WikiEditUsername you really need to stop painting me as some sort of ill-intentioned person, its extremely annoying. First of all I'll put aside the English Language sources as they don't include any direct sources for their claims on ethnicity in the form of a quote from family or friends and focus on the Pashto and Persian. First off as I mentioned there is absolutely no mention of him having a Pashtun ethnicity in BBC English and the article you quoted in Persian clearly says it is archived and outdated and doesn't include a reference in the form of a quote from a family or friend. You ignore how authoritative TOLO is regarding matters related to Afghanistan. We have multiple indisputable reliable source in Persian from direct statements of his family's associates and friends stating him to be an Ethnic Tajik including his two closest companions Samad Dar Dar and Safiuallah Sobat who you keep on hilariously mentioning indirectly via the Al Jazeera article that mentions him as a close friend.( See the TOLO TV documentary featuring Samad Dar Dar and many other associates of Ahmad Zahir, the interview with Safiuallah Sobat and the book reference of his father's contemporary and historian Mohammad Sediq Farhang) and speaking of Telvision a fellow contemporary singer Zahir Howaida recently did an interview detailing how Ahmad Zahir was discriminated against by the director of national television at that time for not being Pashtun. You can't use Wikipedia Pashto as a source any more than I can Wikipedia Farsi in which btw no such statement occurs on the Farsi page. Finally, The authenticity of the alleged recording is in dispute and contradicted by the above facts. Read this article from a Persian news outlet actually based in Afghanistan regarding the authenticity of that recording (which FYI originally surfaced online in a 2012 Youtube Video by an anonymous account which I can show if needed).

https://jawedan.com/1398/18016/ ("Jawdan is a non-partisan, independent and free online publication that aims to promote and defend freedom of expression and democracy in Afghanistan.")

and I quote

در پیرامون کشف ( پته مصاحبه) داوود فارانی با احمد ظاهرجعلی!" ثریا بها : پاسخ مستند مورخ بزرگ میرمحمد صدیق فرهنگ به بی آزرم ترین جعل پردازان تاریخ که از اوج حقارت فرهنگی، صدا و هویت احمدظاهر را هم جعل کردند. سند محکم و بی تردید از مورخ بزرگ و شهیرمیرمحمد صدیق فرهنگ که خود در سال ۱۳۴۴ نماینده پارلمان بود به وضاحت می نویسد که : حسن صافی پیرو محمد گل مومند نمی خواست داکتر ظاهر ( پدر احمدظاهر) نسبت تاجیک بودن و پارسی / دری زبان بودن به کرسی ریاست پارلمان برسد، و حتا مخالف کاندید شدن داکترظاهر تاجیک از لغمان بود . سند را مطالعه کنید. افغان ملتی ها همان پیروان محمد گل مهمند، پدرفاشیسم افعانی که زمانی در مساجد برای پیروزی هتلر دعا می خواند. امروز با همان تفکر تبارگرایانه به جعل هویت خواننده بلند آوازه احمد ظاهر پرداخته و برایش هویت جعلی بافته اند، اما تاریخ و واقعیت های تاریخی چیز دیگری غیر از جعل می گوید. جعل سازان افغان ملتی، در این اواخر یک مصاحبۀ جعلی با امکانات تکنالوژی امروزی ساخته اند؛ گویا چهل سال پیش آقای داؤود فارانی با احمدظاهر مصاحبه یی داشته است و دراین ( پته مصاحبه ) صدایی فارانی درست شنیده نمی شود شاید ارواح فارانی مصاحبه کرده باشد. در این مصاحبه بی دیباچه و بی فرجام، آقای فارانی هیچ پرسش دیگری نداشته جزهمان یک پرسش تبارگرایانه تا احمدظاهر جعلی بگوید " مادرم پشتو زبان بود" که با صدا و شیوۀ سخن گفتن و ادبیات احمدظاهر اصلی کوچکترین شباهتی ندارد و دیگر هیچ ... این (پته مصاحبه)ی گویا ۴۰ سال پیش انسان را به یاد (پته خزانه ) ۸۰۰سال پیش می اندازد. جعل اندرجعل در یاخته های مغزی این تبارچون موریانه لانه گزیده است. آیا این جعل سالاران نمی دانند که بیشتر از ۹۹ درصد آهنگ های احمدظاهر پارسی و اشعارش از شاعران پارسی زبان افغانستان و ایران بوده است و تنها دو سه آهنگ پشتو، سه آهنگ انگلیسی و چند آهنگ هندی دارد که درفیصدی نمی آیند. اینک من پرسشی دارم: احمدظاهر، این هنرمند بی بدیل و استثتایی را کی کشت؟ تلون، اسدالله امین و حفیظ الله امین از کدام تبار بودند؟ صدای سحر آمیز احمدظاهر را کدام قوم، کدام اهریمنان خاموش کردند؟ احمد ظاهر پدر و مادرش از تاجیکان پارسی زبان لغمان بودند و اما در کابل زندگی و سکونت داشتند. احمدظاهر و ظاهره و بلقیس خواهرانش وآصف برادرش در چهاراهی انصاری کابل زاده شدند و فرهنگ مردمان شهرکابل را داشتند؛ نه فرهنگ قبیله یی. هویت فرد با فرهنگ، زبان وجغرافیای زیستش شناسی می شود . زمانی که من در مکتب زرغونه درس می خواندم، بلقیس خواهر کوچک احمدظاهر، در کنسرت های مکتب به زبان انگلیسی و فارسی آهنگ می خواند و اصلن پشتو بلد نبود. نینواز همسایه ما در بلاک ۲۸الف در مکروریان بود و شب هایی که احمدظاهر خانه نینواز ساز و سرود داشت به خواست عالیه خانم نینواز گاهی آنجا می رفتم. صدا و شیوۀ سخن گفتن احمدظاهر را خوب به یاد دارم. در پایان این متن کلیپ مصاحبه صدای جعلی و صدای واقعی احمدظاهر را می گذارم تا خود به حقارت فرهنگی این جعل سالاران تاریخ پی ببرید و همچنان سند محکم و بی تردید مورخ بزرگ میرمحمد صدیق فرهنگ را از صفحه ۳۶۳ کتاب خاطراتش این هم لینک صدای جعلی به نام احمد ظاهر

"و این هم لینک صدای واقعی احمدظاهر https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVv81o28F8A&t=10s

A small translation of that news article states

"A solid and unequivocal document from the great and famous historian Mir Mohammad Siddiq Farhang, who himself was a member of parliament in 1344, clearly states that: They opposed the candidacy of Dr. Zahir a Tajik from Laghman."

and

"Ahmad Zahir's parents were Laghman Persian-speaking Tajiks, but lived in Kabul."

"At the end of this text, I will leave the interview of the fake voice and the real voice of Ahmad Zahir"

Bottom Line:

Enough is enough. There are more than enough sources provided here to conclude that the ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir and his family is in dispute. The sources included above for him being Tajik are many in number and they are of a variety that is indisputable. They include, but are not limited to Persian/Dari language interviews with associates and friends of Ahmad Zahir as well as book reference from a noted historian and contemporary of his father, Let's just compromise and agree to leave out all references to ethnicity until we get a direct statement from his living relatives in English, Persian, or even Pashto stating his ethnicity in a direct statement... AFGFactChecker (talk) 07:54, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

@AFGFactChecker: @C.Fred: @BubbaJoe123456: @Revirvlkodlaku:

The bottom line is, look at the sources I have provided and look at the sources AFGFactChecker has provided. Anyone who is not entirely biased can clearly see which sources are more authentic.

On the one hand, I have provided an array of reputable international sources that include an audio recording of Ahmad Zahir himself, video interviews with colleagues and contemporaries of Ahmad Zahir, and written articles in 3 languages that include quotes from friends and colleagues of Ahmad Zahir. These sources are from BBC Persian, BBC Pashto, The New York Times, Al Jazeera, The Guardian, and others. These sources have a combined hundreds of years of experience in journalism, reporting, and broadcasting. The best part about these sources is that anyone, and I mean anyone, can go and check them and verify their authenticity. If one cannot read the language that some of these sources are written in, that is not a problem either because they are all machine-readable and therefore they can easily be machine-translated by anyone with a computer and access to the internet.

On the other hand we have sources such as YouTube videos uploaded by AFGFactChecker himself (as already noted by C.Fred the publisher of that video, Informational Video, has no other content nor a description of itself), YouTube videos that have been taken down for copyright infringement, a picture of 1 page in a book that no one has ever heard of, ever seen, or ever read. As a matter of fact, no one taking part in this discussion even has access to this book. It is not machine-readable, not machine-translatable, and we cannot even confirm the author of the book, when it was published, by whom it was published, etc. Additionally we have YouTube videos that AFGFactChecker keeps referring to as "documentaries" for some reason. I implore each and every single one of you, please just go to YouTube and type in "Chai Khana Tolo" and you will see that this is not a "documentary" series but rather an entertainment, music, and talk show series. Just take a look at Season 11 Episode 4, Season 9 Episode 27, Season 11 Episode 35, and Season 11 Episode 49 as examples. There are so many more, if you have the time to look. AFGFactChecker says that I "ignore how authoritative TOLO is regarding matters related to Afghanistan". That is not true. TOLO TV is in fact a reputable broadcasting network. It is Afghanistan's most watched TV network as a matter of fact, and I tune into their programs myself very often. Do not try to spin what I am saying. I am saying "Chai Khana" is not a "documentary" like you claim. I have not made ANY statements regarding TOLO TV and how authoritative or not they are on matters relating to Afghanistan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pv1kkytD3L8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEawEzHTLmM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLROMBir6q4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLeaKhuyWDc

But honestly, the worst part of this whole thing is the references to the videos on FaceBook and how AFGFactChecker cannot understand why those are problematic and cannot be taken as reliable sources. That is both sad and ridiculous at the same time... If we are going to start using FaceBook (or other social media platforms) as references for an encyclopedia, then I will go ahead and get started with editing Earth's page so that it says the Earth is flat, I will edit the COVID-19 page so that it says that COVID-19 is a hoax started by Bill Gates to implant microchips in all of humanity, I will go and edit the Space Race page so that it says the United States never landed on the moon, and I will go ahead and edit Donald Trump's page so that it says he won the 2020 United States elections and is still President of the United States of America.

I want to say thank you to the editors and other users who have had to take time out of their days to monitor this nonsensical back and forth that has been going on since March.

Thank you C.Fred, BubbaJoe123456, Revirvlkodlaku, and anyone else I may have missed.

WikiEditUsername7 (talk) 18:27, 30 April 2021 (UTC)