Talk:Ahmad Zahir/Archive 2

Request for edit

{{Editprotected}} Requesting revert from 88.69.17.138's last edit to the neutral version immediately preceding it, a version which I am defining as neutral because it makes no claims as to the subject's ethnicity. See discussions in the above section. IP-hopping editor appears to have provided fictitious (or at least unverifiable) sources and failed to build any support for his edits alleging Tajik ethnicity. The only verifiable sources I have seen appear to confirm Pashtun ethnicity, anyway. I think we have had enough of analyzing the IP's disruptions in the section above. AtticusX (talk) 09:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

But you delelte all other sources. What´s with them? That he had at least one Russian song, the various poets he was under influence etc. Your version, is not only half-correct, it also do not mention poets that are not from modern Afghanistan. We can smell an ethnocentric policy that won´t be accepted!--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

IP editor, I'm sorry you're still having difficulty getting the point.

• None of your sources on Zahir proved verifiable. They didn't exist, couldn't be checked by a third party, or (most damningly) turned out not to say what you claimed.
• What would emailing a photo of Zahir with your family prove? An alleged family tie is usually a disqualification by Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest standards.
• Your latest list of links to books about Pashtunization in the section above is equally pointless: none of them mention Zahir.
• The version the consensus appears to support restoring cannot be called ethnocentric by any stretch. It plays it safe by not mentioning ethnicity at all, which is our concession to the possibility that the verifiable sources stating Zahir was "an ethnic Pashtun" are wrong. Wikipedia doesn't need to take sides. Most readers probably won't care if he was Pashtun, Tajik, or half-whatever.
• Your hysterics, uncivil behavior and use of fictional and irrelevant sources is fundamentally opposed to the collaborative spirit necessary to move this discussion and the article forward. We have tried to engage with you in good faith long after it was already clear that your edits were disruptive. AtticusX (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I am also supporting the above mentioned version ([1]). Honestly, I have no idea what ethnicity Ahmad Zahir belonged to, and I honestly do not care. He might have been a Pashtun, but that's by no means a certainty. He could have been a Tajik as well. Since we do not have sufficient sources, we should leave out rubbish claims. Most of all, he is remembered as the greatest musician of Afghanistan, and it is a fact that almost all of his songs are in Persian (personally, I do not know any song by Ahmad Zahir in any other language but Persian). Tajik (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

This rough consensus in favor of the neutral version is probably as unanimous as it's going to get. The IP editor is the only dissenting voice, and he's not providing any coherent arguments, nor is he listening. In my estimation, this is no longer a dispute; it's just one guy trolling in protest of the consensus. How does Wikipedia deal with disruptive editors when they are IP hoppers? AtticusX (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with AtticusX. However, we should not assume bad faith. I am sure the IP user will also agree with us. Just cool down a bit ... all sides of the conflict. This is really not a big deal. Tajik (talk) 03:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I have provided 3 credible sources which state that he was an ethnic Pashtun. There should be no doubt in it, unless we can prove that he might have been a non-Pashtun. So far, we don't have a single neutral source stating that he was a Tajik. Why shouldn't we add that he was an ethnic Pashtun from Mohammadzai tribe when the information can be referenced with reliable sources? To solve the IP's issues, the article can be semi-protected and the IP can be banned, if he is neither listening nor providing coherent arguments. We are only encouraging the IPs to continue with their disruptive editing across Wikipedia without any consequences. (Ketabtoon (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC))

I have let this IP hopper's casually racist comments get under my skin more than he deserved. But I have to say I'm done assuming good faith on the IP's behalf, based on the history of his talk page edits. Have you read his hyper-obscene rant from 2007 above, under #Origine? (Same misspelling of the word "origin", same claim of close family connection to Zahir, same vitriol.) Tracking a few of his multiple histories, he has been abusing editors for years now, and not just on this talk page. Anyway, you're probably right, Tajik, I need to cool down a bit, get some distance. AtticusX (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Ketabtoon: semi-protection is a sound idea. AtticusX (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Ketabtoon, I think it's the safest not to mention anything about his ethnicity (although I think that it's logical to assume that he was of Pashtun origin - not necessarily identifying himself as a Pashtun - considering his father occupation and social status during Muhammadzai rule). This source is in fact reliable, but it is not necessarily accurate. Tajik (talk) 11:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

That is the question, why is it the safest not to mention his ethnicity? We are ready to mention the ethnic origin for every one else here in Wikipedia but not him. There is no doubt and not a single source would be able to claim that Ahmad Zahir was not a Pashtun because apparently his father was. If we are not to mention his ethnic origin, than we have to remove it for every body else as well. There is not a single reason why it shouldn't be mentioned. If the IP is concerned, like I mentioned, the article can be semi-protected and the IP's access to Wikipedia can be blocked if it continues with it's disruptive editing. (Ketabtoon (talk) 18:42, 17 January 2011 (UTC))

I have no problems with that. However, I think that only this source should be used: [2] Tajik (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with that. (Ketabtoon (talk) 23:06, 18 January 2011 (UTC))

Done Dabomb87 (talk) 23:15, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Semi-protected for a period of 3 months, after which the page will be automatically unprotected. The consensus is now clear. There's no indication from the IP's long and vitrolic editing history across various addresses that they will let this go. There is a possibility that pending changes might work, and I'd be happy to consider this if there's consensus for it here, though I suspect that it would simply mean lots and lots of reversions/rejections. Have given it three months to see what happens, but if that fails, I suspect indef will be the only way forward. GedUK  07:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

File:Ahmad Zahir-Afghanistan.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Is there really a controversy regarding the authorship of Tanha Shodam Tanha and the year the album "Lylee" was released?

A view has been expressed in several articles and YouTube comment sections that Zahir was the author of the original music to the song Tanha Shodam Tanha he recorded some time in the 1970s. The song is included in the album "Lylee", which is also listed as "Vol. 11" and normally dated as 1977 . The song was featured in the movie Kite Runner and is, almost certainly, a cover of the 1974 disco hit by the French duo Bimbo Jet, written by Claude Morgan (born Claude Ganem) in 1974. Claude Morgan is listed as the author of the song in this record by the French music copyright authority SACEM: http://www.sacem.fr/oeuvres/oeuvre/printOeuvre.do?cocv=7402685111 An authoritative web site WhoSampeld.com dedicated to "explorig the DNA of music" also lists Zahir as the one who covered Morgan, an not other way around http://www.whosampled.com/cover/69345/Ahmad-Zahir-Tanha-Shodam-Tanha-Bimbo-Jet-El-Bimbo/ They even mention contacting Mr. Morgan about it and his confirming in writing his claim to authorship.

I think this controversy only exists in the minds of some older Afghans who grew up with Zahir's music, but were not exposed to the Western music and, naturally, thought this song was his original. This belief also found its way into the minds of several English and Russian speakers who, being fans of the song El Bimbo, had taken it upon themselves to trace back its origins. Having come upon a mention of Zahir's album "Lylee" being dated as 1971, they assured themselves that Zahir was the author of the song and that Morgan had plagiarized it. Once so convinced, they took it upon themselves -- or so I suspect -- to edit ("whitewash") this Wikipedia page to better match their belief. Indeed, some of the 2010 and 2011 comments on the subject say things like "how can this be Zahir's original when his own Wikipedia page does not mention it, and it is a world hit?", or "why do you believe 'Lylee' was released in 1971 when Zahir's Wikipedia page says 1977?" These "believers" at first denied the significance of Wikipedia article as inaccurate and then proceeded to modify it to better fit with their narrative.

I am not a fan of Zahir's music (other than this song), I don't know much about Afghan culture or music -- I am sorry. I became interested in this topic solely by being a fan of the song El Bimbo and all possible cover versions. The only sources available to me are other Web sites, with the SACEM site being the only official resource. I am asking those who are knowledgeable on the subject to please chime in. A few posts and comments on YouTube and Russian music sites notwithstanding, is there a serious reason to believe that 1)the album Lylee was published in 1971, when Zahir was 24 or 25, making it his debut album not to be followed by another album for two years, and 2)that Zahir was the original author of the song better known around the world as El Bimbo, which Claude Morgan in 1974 claimed as his own?

I removed the paragraph about Tanha Shodam (also spelled Shofam) Tanha from the article. Feel free to restore it if you are someone who is knowledgeable about Ahmad Zahir and think it is an important part of his musical legacy.

Also, if you have information that Lylee is a 1977 album, and not 1971, please edit that paragraph as well. I left both dates in because, indeed, there are Web pages that list both years. Some of them, undoubtedly, borrowed from this article. Others informed it. It is very hard to determine the primacy at this point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atolkachev (talk • contribs) 18:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why these dates are so incorrect. Ahmad zanier' career and recordings started way before 1973. Most of Ahmad zahir 's Afghan music albums were recoded by 1974, the year I left Afghanistan . I brought most of his afghan music records with me to the states. Please put the correct year on these albums because most if them are completely wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.197.7.131 (talk) 03:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe this warrant the discovery of one of these records and a careful examination of the media. Assuming that the date was written in Arabic numerals, it is entirely possible a '1' and a '7' got confused given their similarity. I certainly hope there are original copies that still exist despite years of war.134.129.121.68 (talk) 05:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

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Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page have been nominated for deletion:

• Ahmad Zaher.jpg
• Portrait of Ahmad Zahir.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:41, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir sang a song in Russian as well.

Note I wasn't the one that added it initially but I researched it and it ended up being true. Here's the source. AFGFactChecker (talk) 07:03, 1 April 2021 (UTC)

References