Talk:2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh/Archive 4

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Requested move 1 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - there is clearly no consensus in favour of the proposed move in this discussion. Particularly, there is a rough consensus that the proposed name has POV problems. The discussion has obviously come to a natural conclusion so there is not point in letting it run further. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 14:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

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2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh → Azerbaijan's takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh – The offensive is only a small part of this takeover. Vast majority of the article is after the offensive. [1] Lots of sources uses "takeover" as well. Beshogur (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:50, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. The proposed title better fits the content of the article. Grandmaster 10:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, per WP:NPOV. Takeover hides that it was a military invasion that resulted in the "cleansing" of the Armenian population. BilledMammal (talk) 10:09, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per BilledMammal. "Takeover" is definitely a NPOV title. ChaotıċEnby(t · c) 10:46, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose - Takeover is too broad and comes across as POV. Perhaps offensive is too specific to the events that have taken place, but I don't think there can be another title which encompasses both the events without being blatantly biased. BBC, Al Jazeera and others use the term, very little use takeover. Other terms like liberation or capture I believe would also be unacceptable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:EmilePersaud 18:19, 2 January 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by EmilePersaud (talk • contribs)

• Oppose, per BilledMammal, Chaotic Enby and EmilePersaud. Ken Aeron (talk) 18:52, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Speedy close, WP:NPOV and this has already been discussed. The current title is appropriate. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:56, 2 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support the military offensive is only one part of the article and the title should reflect that. I think takeover if much more preferable to annexation, capture, etc.Yeoutie (talk) 16:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support. Offensive describes only one aspect of the events that occurred and hence the title is too specific. Takeover feels more appropriate to describe the entirety of the article. - Creffel (talk) 08:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Comment I reckon "Annexation of the Republic of Artsakh by Azerbaijan" would be a better title for this article. N. Mortimer (talk) 15:25, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose Because "takeover" would mask the armed invasion, and there is no evidence of takeover being the common name. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:41, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

  Maybe stop misleading people here. No single word here described this as an invasion. Only 2 times 'invasion' appears, and that's about Ukraine. Beshogur (talk) 11:15, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:NPOV and WP:COMMONNAME offensive is a much more common and neutral term used in reliable secondary sources covering this event. TagaworShah (talk) 02:19, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Rosguill: would like to hear your thoughts. People claim 'takeover' is POV term while 'offensive' isn't. Beshogur (talk) 11:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

"Takeover" seems unusually informal for an article title in the absence of resounding evidence that it's the WP:COMMONNAME. I'm not sure it's really a question of neutrality between the suggested terms so much as it is a question of tone. It also seems relevant that the scope of the article as-written is the 1-day military operation in September 2023, which matches "offensive" well, but "annexation" (or "takeover") would lead me to expect an article primarily about the administrative process following the initial military maneuver, not the maneuver itself. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

@Estar8806: Actually I'm the only one providing sources. And 2023 Azerbaijani offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh is not a commonname. Bad closure. Beshogur (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

None of the results from the google search you provided (ie. not a reliable source) actually use the title you proposed. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:36, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

• Azerbaijan takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - France 24
• Nagorno-Karabakh during an Azerbaijani military takeover - AJ
• Azerbaijan's takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - Foreign Policy
• takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - FT
• Azerbaijan's military takeover of Nagorno-Karabakh - DW
• Nagorno-Karabakh after Azerbaijan's lightning takeover - The Guardian

These are results without even clicking. Beshogur (talk) 10:54, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Fair point. My results must be different. I see no problem with reverting and relishing, so that's what I'll do. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support: The proposed title makes more sense. The offence was just a few hours, whereas the article covers a much wider range of period including the aftermath that is talked about more than the offensive itself.KHE'O (talk) 17:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose "Azerbaijan's". As I've expressed before this is gramatically bizarre. Why would we not use the demonym form instead? No opinion on the rest of the wording. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Support per @Kheo17 as a more accurate and meaningful description. Killuminator (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV issues

Hello Ken Aeron, you had made a number of WP:NPOV edits recently, such as the Armed Forces of Armenia being present in Artsakh, which was unsourced, and removing that Artsakh was primarily populated by Armenians, which you only explained as a "fix". And it is inaccurate to say Azerbaijan "regains" these territories, because it never had de facto control of them previously. I put the bias accusation in quotes, as it is in quotations within the source as well. Please don't remove sourced information without discussing why first. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:43, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

"Regain" is the correct term. The USSR ceased to exist in December 1991. With the exception of Stepanakert, every other major town in Nagorno-Karabakh came under Armenian control when Azerbaijan was already an independent state, e.g. Karkijahan (a suburb of Stepanakert) by late January 1992, Khojaly and Askeran by late February 1992, Shusha in May 1992 (see corresponding article), Hadrut in October 1992, Mardakert by late June 1993. If Azerbaijan did not control these regions de facto, then what were those battles about? Parishan (talk) 22:08, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Because Azerbaijan had controlled over the majority of the former NKAO since the Soviet Union fell, "regain" in the de facto sense is simply incorrect. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:44, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

I still do not understand why. You said earlier that Azerbaijan "never had de facto control" over these territories as an independent country when it clearly did (cf. places and dates above). Why is "regain" incorrect? Parishan (talk) 11:25, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Here are sources confirming that Azerbaijan never previously had de facto control over the former NKAO.[2][3][4] --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:22, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Where exactly do they say that? I am looking at the first source and it clearly says: "From 1988 to 1992, with the Soviet Union in decline, Nagorno-Karabakh Armenians entertained hopes that the demise of Soviet rule would also bring the end of Azeri control over the region", which means that Azerbaijan was in control of Nagorno-Karabakh as of 1992.

The third source says the exact opposite of what you are alleging: "Hence, the territorial decisions taken by the Soviets in those days had to be respected, and they still form the basis of current state structure in the region. Therefore, there are no doubts about the international borders of the Republic of Azerbaijan, which included Nagorno-Karabakh at the time it was founded according to the principle of uti possidetis."

I am discarding the second link: Haykaram Nahapetyan of the Public TV Company of Armenia is not a reliable source.

Just for the record: if you run "Azerbaijan regained control" in a search engine, you will end up with hundreds of results. This is not a difficult statement to back up with reliable sources. Parishan (talk) 00:58, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

These sources are referring to Soviet Azerbaijan within the USSR, not an independent Republic of Azerbaijan. The Republic of Artsakh and the Republic of Azerbaijan both declared statehood at virtually the same time at the fall of the Soviet Union. Various sources support the fact that an independent Azerbaijan never had de facto control over Artsakh, I can provide plenty more. Various other sources indicate that de jure control was also limited. Basically an independent Azerbaijan has never exercised de facto control over NKR (and limited de jure control of Az SSR, as per "autonomous oblast"), hence it is more neutral and accurate to simply state "took".

• "Nagorno-Karabakh had never been ruled by a post-Soviet independent Azerbaijan" link
• "Thus, the above-mentioned clearly shows that Nagorno Karabakh has never been part of independent Azerbaijan." link
• "Disputing the historical basis for Azerbaijan’s claim of title to territory, Armenia points out that the League of Nations refused to recognize the 1918–20 Azerbaijan Republic in part because the pro- spective state did not have effective control of the territory it claimed. This tidbit of historical legalism gives the Karabakh Armenians justification for claiming territory that was never, according to their argument, part of an independent Azerbaijan.... The Armenian argument emphasized not only that the disputed enclave had never been part of independent Azerbaijan but also that..." link
• "Third, the region has never been part of the territory of independent Azerbaijan." link
• "Heydar Aliyev’s monument in the heart of Mexico City, which on the lower end has cost $5.5 million, was “generously” donated by oil-rich Azerbaijan and contains another underlying message: the huge map made out of marble behind Aliyev’s sculpture shows Nagorno Karabakh as part of modern Azerbaijan. This territory was never part of independent Azerbaijan and was granted to Soviet Azerbaijan upon Stalin’s dictatorial pressure in 1921." link
• "Thus, Nagorno-Karabakh was arguably never truly a part of independent Azerbaijan."link
• Considering the Karabakh question,for instance, Azerbaijani history usually begins in the mid-1800s; with the normative,ideal situation considered to be the state of affairs for the 20th century (i.e. Azerbaijan has sovereignty over Karabakh). While discussing the Southern Azerbaijan issue, however,the nationalists' historical record portrays the normative,ideal situation as having ended in 1828-but even that period is problematic because the "united Azerbaijan" was never independent(as Elchibey's previous remark about the "restoration of a united Azerbaijan"might mislead one to believe); instead,it was always a part of the Iranian empire." link
• "Under the rule of the Russian Tsar, Nagorno-Karabakh was assigned to the administrative districts from which the Republic of Azerbaijan later emerged. When Russian supremacy was weakened as a result of the revolutions in 1917, both Armenians and Azerbaijanis laid claim to Nagorno-Karabakh. The region’s affiliation was disputed and not determined at that time. Moreover, the proclaimed Armenian and Azerbaijani republics could not be considered as independent states and their recognition was, therefore, refused by the League of Nations in 1920 due to the lack of recognized borders, of a constitution, and of a stable government.53" link
• "On 2 September the Karabakh Armenians also declared independence, which they underscored by means of a swiftly organized referendum, in which 99 per cent of the (Armenian) population voted for full sovereignty. Reciprocally' the Azeri parliament abolished the autonomy of Karabakh, which, however, had no further real influence on developments." link
• "Under this agreement Nagorno-Karabakh has not been part of an independent Azerbaijan, and Azerbaijan has not exercised sovereignty over Nagorno-Karabakh." link

KhndzorUtogh (talk)

These sources are referring to Soviet Azerbaijan within the USSR, not an independent Republic of Azerbaijan. There was no Soviet Azerbaijan in 1992, so no, they do not refer to Soviet Azerbaijan.

The Republic of Artsakh and the Republic of Azerbaijan both declared statehood at virtually the same time at the fall of the Soviet Union. It matters little when either of them declared independence since the discussion started with you doubting that independent Azerbaijan was ever de facto in control over Nagorno-Karabakh before 2020. If as of 22 December 1991 (the day the USSR ceased to exist), Azerbaijan was still in control of Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs, all which came under Armenian control throughout 1992 and 1993, it means that Azerbaijan as an independent state was indeed in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh at least for a few solid months (and up to a year-and-a-half's period). This is supported by the sources I quoted above.

The links you have provided to support your allegation are a compilation of results of a what appears to be a hasty online search. Their reliability really leaves much to be desired. Let us take a look at whom you are citing:

• Yelena Ambartsumian, a transactional lawyer who published her article in an arts blog;
• Hayk Torosyan of the Yerevan-based Russian-Armenian University, a clearly partisan source (if I start quoting what scholars from Azerbaijan have to say about Karabakh, this discussion will never see its end);
• Arman Sarvarian, a Bachelor's student in Law when his article was published, unlikely peer-reviewed at the time;
• Haykaram Nahapetyan of the Public TV Company of Armenia, a partisan source of dubious reliability;
• Tigran Yepremyan of Yerevan State University, another partisan source;
• The last link yields the text of a bill (!) referred by the Pennsylvania House of Representatives to the state government and never voted on.

I believe the affiliations and the credentials of these sources speak for themselves. I am therefore only going to comment on the four sources that are reliable and authored by established, peer-reviewed scholars.

• Anne-Marie Gardner summarises the Karabakh Armenians' point of view when talking about Azerbaijan allegedly never being in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh (she clearly says "according to their argument"; this is neither her opinion, nor a reflection of any third-party opinion).
• Cameron Brown adresses Elchibey's "united Azerbaijan" concept, which has nothing to do with the Karabakh issue and refers to Elchibey's support of Iranian Azerbaijani irredentism, with the goal of it forming a single state with the Republic of Azerbaijan. Where exactly does the author say anything about Azerbaijan never controlling Nagorno-Karabakh?
• Heiko Krüger discusses the quarrel over Karabakh in 1917–1920 in the excerpt you have provided. I already quoted the part of his article where he concludes that Azerbaijan was indeed in control of Nagorno-Karabakh at the time of the USSR's dissolution.
• Emil Souleimanov does not say that Azerbaijan was never in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh; he only says that the abolition of the autonomy by the government of Azerbaijan did not curtail the sovereignty movement. Parishan (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Your source breakdown is really just opinion. Several of these sources like HyperAllergic were previously discussed on WP:RSN, and the community didn't deem it unreliable or unsuitable for Wikipedia. Here are two more sources that describe the leadup and the actual first NKR war as "a civil war" either within Azerbaijan or within the USSR.

1. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1993/11/08/afghan-fighters-aiding-azerbaijan-in-civil-war/48f8e736-75b6-4472-8d6f-4665df1debe8/
2. De Waal. Black Garden, p. 120.

This means that Soviet Azerbaijan was not in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh before the USSR collapsed (again, emphasizing the distinction between an independent and Soviet Azerbaijan, and de facto and de jure). De Waal describes a Soviet civil war "in which units of the soviet army were engaged in fighting on Soviet territory".

Prior to 1990, Nagorno-Karabakh was an autonomous region within the Azerbaijan SSR, meaning Azerbaijan had de jure control over the area. De facto, it was governed locally by its predominantly ethnic Armenian population, but within the constraints of its status as part of the Azerbaijan SSR under the Soviet Union. The situation began to change dramatically as the Soviet Union started to disintegrate, leading to the declaration of independence by Nagorno-Karabakh and the subsequent war.

Local governance in Nagorno-Karabakh, like other autonomous oblasts in the Soviet Union, was designed to reflect the ethnic composition of the region. This meant that many of the local administrative positions were held by ethnic Armenians. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Several of these sources like HyperAllergic were previously discussed on WP:RSN, and the community didn't deem it unreliable or unsuitable for Wikipedia. It was discussed there only in the context of an art-related matter. I do not remember there ever being consensus either about that or about HyperAllergic's authority on any AA2 issue, especially when it comes to articles published by authors with questionable credentials.

the actual first NKR war as "a civil war" either within Azerbaijan or within the USSR. A civil war is "a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country" (as defined by Merriam-Webster), so if a source refers to the First Karabakh War as a "civil war in Azerbaijan", it can only mean Nagorno-Karabakh was part of Azerbaijan at the time of the war according to that source.

I am afraid I must repeat my original question: if Azerbaijan did not control Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs (all of which were situated within Nagorno-Karabakh) de facto until 1992–1993, when it was no longer a Soviet state, then what were those battles about? Parishan (talk) 01:31, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

But that same country was the Soviet Union. Michael Croissant writes in The Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict that "with de facto Azerbaijani authority over the NKAO broken in the latter half of 1988" (p. 34). This confirms an independent Azerbaijan never had de facto control over the region previously. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

But that same country was the Soviet Union. Then what was the point of you bringing up that source?

Croissant does not say that Azerbaijan's authority over the NKAO was lost permanently in 1988. In fact, just on the next page he talks about the reinstatement of "direct Azerbaijan rule over the NKAO" in November 1989.

Also, when talking about the capture of Khojaly in February 1992 (p. 78), Croissant states: "Khojaly was of major symbolic and strategic significance to Azerbaijan in its quest to retain control over the territory of the former NKAO". The word "retain" suggests that (post-Soviet) Azerbaijan had up until that point been in control of the former NKAO.

Croissant adds (p. 80) that the capture of Lachin in May 1992 "consolidate[d] the ouster of Azerbaijani forces from Nagorno-Karabakh that had begun at Khojaly", which is a clear indication that the Azerbaijani (not Soviet) army was in control of Nagorno-Karabakh before it was ousted from there as part of a process which started with the capture of Khojaly.

Next is the 1992 summer offensive (p. 84), on which Croissant comments thus: "The fall of Mardakert and surrounding towns left virtually all of northern Nagorno-Karabakh in Azerbaijani hands for the first time since the beginning of the year, thus signaling a shift in the fortunes of war in favor of Azerbaijan."

I can continue but I believe these excerpts are enough to illustrate that Azerbaijan was in de facto control of the NKAO (and specifically of the regions recaptured in 2023) for months after the dissolution of the USSR and that the word "regain" is justified for the 2023 developments. Parishan (talk) 04:40, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Parishan, please do not pull quotes out of context. Page 35 refers to a Soviet vote decision (de jure, not de facto) that, as the next paragraph states, was rejected by the NKAO leadership and never put into practice. The very next page refers to it as a "toothless roar from the Kremlin". In any case, this is still predates an independent Azerbaijan state.

On pages 77-78, Croissant explains that the area was already de facto controlled by Armenian forces and Azerbaijan had been preparing to take full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh in late 1991 when it gained independence, then tried to march on Stepanakert but failed to capture it:

The opening months of 1992 were marked by the explosion of full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh between forces of the fledgling Azerbaijani national army and locally raised units of the so-called Karabakh army, both of whom had acquired substantial amounts of weaponry from withdrawing Soviet Interior Ministry troops and from Soviet military facilities. While Baku had begun mobilizing for war in December 1991, the ostensible catalyst for an early 1992 Azerbaijani offensive was the 18 January proclamation of an independent "Nagorno-Karabakh Republic" (NKR) by the Supreme Soviet of the former NKAO.

In response to the declaration of independence by Nagorno-Karabakh, the Azerbaijanis launched a major military operation against Stepanakert from the nearby town of Agdam on 31 January. Intended apparently to drive Armenian forces out of the area, the offensive included several thousand Azerbaijani soldiers backed by armored vehicles and rocket and artillery fire. However, in what emerged as a pattern common to most of Baku's military operations over the next two years, Azerbaijani forces carried out their attacks in a haphazard and uncoordinated way and were beaten back in rapid fashion by Stepanakert's Armenian defenders. Thereafter, Azerbaijani troops resorted to seemingly indiscriminate rocket and artillery attacks on the Karabakh capital and nearby villages from nearby heights in an attempt to break the will of the Armenian populace. Such attacks, however, failed to achieve their goal, and Armenian efforts to silence the sources of Azerbaijani fire became a major factor in the escalation of hostilities through early 1992.

This proves very definitely that the current Azerbaijan state never had de facto control over the entire Nagorno-Karabakh. --KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:56, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

I do not see any contradiction with what I said earlier. Yes, Stepanakert was under de facto Armenian control as of the day the USSR ceased to exist, and I do not believe to have ever argued with this. However, Stepanakert is far from qualifying as "the entire Nagorno-Karabakh" due to constituting but a tiny percentage of its territory. Every other place on which the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic laid claims in its declaration of independence, including Karkijahan and Malibeyli, both immediate suburbs of Stepanakert, were under Azerbaijani control until at least February 1992. The Nagorno-Karabakh Republic was not in full de facto control of its proclaimed territory until summer 1993, i.e. 18 months into Azerbaijan's independence, so "regain" seems like a very suitable word to use. Parishan (talk) 02:07, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

From January 1992, Armenian forces had de facto control over almost the entire NKAO. Crossiant clearly states full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh. If you are now admitting Azerbaijan never had full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh previously, then you are also admitting that using the word "retakes" is false. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

From January 1992, Armenian forces had de facto control over almost the entire NKAO. It most certainly did not. See Capture of Gushchular and Malibeyli, Battle of Shusha (1992), Khojaly massacre, Mardakert and Martuni Offensives. If Azerbaijan did not control Shusha, Khojaly, Askeran, Hadrut, Mardakert, and even of Stepanakert suburbs (all of which were situated within Nagorno-Karabakh) de facto until 1992–1993, when it was no longer a Soviet state, then what were those battles about?

Crossiant clearly states full-scale war in and around Nagorno-Karabakh. Yes, but where does he say exactly that Azerbaijan was not in de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh? If the NKR controlled Nagorno-Karabakh de facto, then why was there "full-scale war" in Nagorno-Karabakh to begin with?

If you are now admitting Azerbaijan never had full de facto control of Nagorno-Karabakh previously. I am not sure what you are referring to. I do not recall "admitting" anything of this sort. In any case, it is irrelevant what I am "admitting". We need reliable sources stating that independent Azerbaijan never had any factual control of any part of Nagorno-Karabakh before 2020. So far we have seen none. On the contrary, we have seen a series of sources, including some quoted by you, confirming that Azerbaijan was indeed in control of Nagorno-Karabakh at the onset of the war. Parishan (talk) 05:21, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

The NKAO and successive NKAO controlled most, not all, of Nagorno-Karabakh. Most of the settlements you listed changed hands several times. We are not discussing if an independent Azerbaijan "never had any factual control" or Nagorno-Karabakh, we are discussing if it previously controlled all of Nagorno-Karabakh, because "regain" is not the correct term unless all of Nagorno-Karabakh was previously occupied by an independent Azerbaijan.

Regarding the Sarvarian source, which you had said "unlikely peer-reviewed at the time". Your assumption was false. The Melbourne Journal of International Law is in fact peer-reviewed. And here is another source, which states Nagorno-Karabakh, "has never before been under the governance of the state of Azerbaijan. Under the Soviets it had the status of an autonomous oblast; in the 1980s it sought separation from Azerbaijan according to the constitution of the Soviet Union; and in the 1990s it fought a painful war for its independence after an Azerbaijani invasion". KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:17, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

The NKAO and successive NKAO controlled most, not all, of Nagorno-Karabakh. You have already said this. I would like to see some sources that back up this claim. Reiterating this in every message is not a convincing argument.

Melbourne Journal of International Law may be peer reviewed but Sarvarian held a Bachelor's degree in law at the time his article was published and was not much of an authority on the matter, definitely falling short of meeting WP:GNG.

Lemkin Institute is a partisan source with a marginal stance and, judging from their reports, the farthest thing from reliable. A self-declared "genocide prevention institute" largely lone in qualifying the blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh as genocide (and using other red-flag terminology when addressing it) but referring to the Khojaly massacre as "so-called" and ostensibly performed "by individual Armenians" which "no Armenian statesman" should be held accountable for, clearly lacks sensitivity to key issues having to do with the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict and cannot pretend to be authoritative. Incidentally, the only time this institute even mentions the Khojaly massacre, the largest civil bloodshed of the First Karabakh War according to much more authoritative sources like Human Rights Watch, is to whitewash the scale of the tragedy and to lampoon Azerbaijan's efforts (however bulky) at raising awareness about it. This is, of course, beside the point but it clearly illustrates how biased this source is.

I am not exactly sure how important it is to delve into discussions over which author meant what and whether not being in control of downtown Stepanakert in December 1991 counts as "not controlling Nagorno-Karabakh". My understanding is that if a matter is an established or widely-believed fact, it should not take us six weeks to find multiple reliable sources that say exactly that, without there being a necessity for subjective interpretations. For now, the overwhelming majority of sources talk about Azerbaijan regaining and not simply taking control of Nagorno-Karabakh. To name just a few (all of them are from September 2023 or later):

• International Court of Justice: "the operation commenced by Azerbaijan in Nagorno-Karabakh on 19 September 2023, after which Azerbaijan regained full control over Nagorno-Karabakh" [5].
• International Crisis Group: "During a 24-hour military operation on 19 and 20 September, Azerbaijan regained full control of Nagorno-Karabakh" [6].
• Human Rights Watch: "In September this year, Azerbaijan regained control of all of Nagorno-Karabakh" [7].
• Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty: "Azerbaijan regained full control of the breakaway region of Nagorno-Karabakh in a 24-hour military offensive on September 19-20" [8]; "Aliyev's visit to the region on October 15, which Azerbaijan regained control of in a lightning offensive in September" [9].
• Euronews: "Thousands of Armenians flee Nagorno-Karabakh as Azerbaijan regains full control" [10].
• France 24: "As Azerbaijan regains control of Nagorno-Karabakh, 'most acute issue is humanitarian situation'" [11].
• The Economist: "But the Karabakh Armenians see this as a Trojan horse that would lead to Azerbaijan regaining effective control of the territory" [12].
• Voice of America: ""Ethnic Armenians flee to Armenia after Azerbaijan regained control of breakaway Nagorno-Karabakh region [13].
• Stratfor: "The incident is the deadliest since Azerbaijan regained control over the Nagorno-Karabakh region in September 2023" [14].

There is clear consensus among reliable sources that Azerbaijan regained control of Nagorno-Karabakh. I doubt any compilation of sources saying the opposite can reasonably counter its weight. 19:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC) Parishan (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

But luckily because Melbourne Journal of International Law is peer reviewed, those with great authority confirmed what Sarvarian stated was accurate.

Just as many if not more sources can be found stating that the region as took or taken:

• The Wall Street Journal: "But since Azerbaijan took control of Nagorno-Karabakh last week" [15].
• The Guardian: "residents of Nagorno-Karabakh fear worst as Azerbaijan’s troops take control" [16].
• France 24: "Azerbaijan took control of the Armenian-majority enclave" [17].
• Peoples Dispatch: "after Azerbaijan took control over the territory in a military operation last week" [18].
• Portland Press Herald: "Thousands of Armenians flee Nagorno-Karabakh as Azerbaijan military takes control" [19].
• Reuters: "took control of the enclave." [20].
• Aljazeera: "Azerbaijan took control of Nagorno-Karabakh" [21].
• Annenberg: "the region known as Nagorno-Karabakh became uncertain after the Azerbaijani military took control following" [22].
• Washington Post: "roughly 120,000 Armenians living in Nagorno-Karabakh fearful of genocide once Baku takes control" [23].
• Aljazeera: "Tens of thousands of ethnic Armenians flee Nagorno-Karabakh as Azerbaijan takes control" [24].

And there are still academic sources directly stating Azerbaijan never had previous complete de facto control. You have made many issues with these sources (although you haven't brought them to WP:RSN yet) but you haven't provided a single source that actually states Azerbaijan had 100% de facto control previously. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 22:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

None of the sources you have quoted contradicts in any way the ones I quoted above since none of them suggests Azerbaijan had no control over the territory before the First Karabakh War. So I am not very sure what these sources are intended to illustrate.

I see little point in providing a source that says that "Azerbaijan had 100% de facto control previously" because that is currently the consensus. It is up to you to prove that Azerbaijan had nothing to do with Nagorno-Karabakh before 2020, in which case I will agree with you that the use of the word "regained" is not just ambiguous but indeed inaccurate. So far, I am yet to see "academic sources directly" making such a claim. I note the plural use of the word "source" in your answer because I am truly, genuinely interested in seeing academic sources that "directly" say Nagorno-Karabakh was never part of Azerbaijan before the Second Karabakh War. Sarvarian is a no-go, sorry. He is not now, nor was he back in 2007 when his article was published, an authority on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

In addition, I hope we are on the same page regarding the fact that any source containing the wording "Azerbaijan lost control of Nagorno-Karabakh" with regard to the early 1990s, of which there are literally hundreds (courtesy of any search engine), is in direct contradiction with the claim that Azerbaijan never exercised control over Nagorno-Karabakh.

I will, nevertheless, finish with a quote from an article by Paul A. Goble, a much better recognised authority than Sarvarian, who says in an article published in summer 1992 (the sentence "the conflict persists following independence on both sides" proves the article was submitted after the dissolution of the USSR): "The positions of Baku and Yerevan remain asymmetrical, however. Baku seeks a return to the status quo ante - a clear impossibility - plus Armenian concessions on access to Nakhichevan. Armenia wants a transfer of territory from Azerbaijan to its own control without having to give anywhere else. The position of the government of the NKAO reflects that of its Armenian population at any particular time." In another paragraph, he says: "To date, Azerbaijan has been the more restrained party. Under Mutalibov, Baku did not strike back after every Armenian attack, insisting only that the NKAO remain within Azerbaijan. The Popular Front government that displaced him, however, came to power precisely because of Mutalibov's unwillingness to strike back." (Goble, Paul A. (1992) "Coping with the Nagorno-Karabakh Crisis." Fletcher Forum of World Affairs 16/2: 19–26).

If in summer 1992, Nagorno-Karabakh was "not under Azerbaijani control", then why would Goble talk about Azerbaijan being expected to relinquish its control of Nagorno-Karabakh or about Nagorno-Karabakh being expected to remain within Azerbaijan? Parishan (talk) 00:17, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Nonconstructive edits

@Nafis Fuad Ayon This isn't an improvement and is quite unconstructive, you're also edit-warring. 1) it was disputed at the time of the offensive, Artsakh dissolved only after the offensive, so it would be misleading to remove disputed here, 2) Armenia wasn't even a party in the offensive so partisan allegations of Azerbaijan like "Armenia’s armed forces" shouldn't be in this article let alone in the lead, 3) it already says "part of Azerbaijan" and already says "self declared breakaway state", we should have some respect to the readers' understanding ability and not spam the same thing over and over. Vanezi (talk) 09:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

(1) It is requested that you mention both the disputed and internationally recognized if you want to add the word "disputed". (2) Nobody can change the official statement when mentioned as official statement. It is statement of Azerbaizan not the wikipedia.Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 09:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

"It is requested that you mention both the disputed and internationally recognized if you want to add the word "disputed"" -

this is repetition and isn't an improvement which I have already demonstrated by my argument above, you can't "request" things because you prefer that way and not provide solid arguments to back it up - wikipedia isn't written for children to repeat the same thing as if our readers have basic reading/understanding skill issues.

"Nobody can change the official statement when mentioned as official statement. It is statement of Azerbaizan not the wikipedia" -

Azerbaijan doesn't control Wikipedia and this allegation isn't confirmed by reliable sources, so it has no place in the article. Armenia wasn't even a party to the offensive, which unlike your added allegation is a fact confirmed by reliable sources. Stop engaging in tendentious editing and see your talk page for an important warning. Vanezi (talk) 09:25, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I mention "I request" to you as a good manner even I have already added the UN resolution as the reference. I can add many more references to support the statement but I think that one is enough. Neither Azerbaijan nor Armania control the Wikipedia. But when someone added a statement from anyone you can't change it according to your will. Example: I can't change what you write to me as my will. Statement of anyone is unchangeable when you mention he/she/them told it. Nafis Fuad Ayon (talk) 10:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

You removed "disputed", I already explained that at the time of the offensive it was disputed, Artsakh dissolved only after the offensive - you have not rebutted this in any way because it's a fact. You added the "international" in lead when it already says "part of Azerbaijan" and already says "self declared breakaway state" - you're not improving the article by adding repeated content which makes it look like our readers' have basic understanding issues - you're not improving by adding this and you haven't rebutted this point either in any way. Also you were reverted for something similar by another user [25], do you not see that you're being disruptive by restoring same repetition over and over again and edit-warring with different users? If you continue edit-warring, you'll be reported. And you restored an Azerbaijan allegation which wasn't confirmed by reliable sources, Wikipedia is based on what's stated in reliable sources, an unconfirmed allegation has no place in the article per our rules. I have no intention of repeating the same things over and over, please be mindful of this. Vanezi (talk) 10:22, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing

@Grandmaster What sources do you have for removing information from a peer-reviewed journal article published by John Hopkins University Press and written by a subject-matter expert? Where are the reliable secondary sources that say there is no consensus of ethnic cleansing? And no the UN report does not deny ethnic cleansing, nor is it a secondary source, international organizations don’t decide what is written on Wikipedia, reliable peer-reviewed historic sources do, and there is consensus among these sources that these events constituted ethnic cleansing of the Karabakh Armenian population. Besides Saparov, we have a multitude of other international scholars who have stated this such as Christina Maranci, Luis Moreno Ocampo, and more. There is consensus among secondary sources that this was ethnic cleansing, this is not a current event anymore, we don’t need to rely on primary sources. TagaworShah (talk) 18:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Copying reverted source below for clarification:

Saparov, Arsène (2023). "Nagorno-Karabakh Conflict: What's Next?". Ab Imperio (3). Project MUSE: Johns Hopkins University Press: 184. doi:10.1353/imp.2023.a915234. ISSN 2164-9731. TagaworShah (talk) 18:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

We have already discussed this at Talk:Flight_of_Nagorno-Karabakh_Armenians#Requested_move_18_January_2024. The Wikipedia community did not agree that there was a consensus among the reliable sources to call this event an ethnic cleansing. What is the basis for your claim that "There is consensus among secondary sources that this was ethnic cleansing"? If you want to include the claim of an ethnic cleansing as a fact, you must demonstrate that this is what the majority of reliable sources call it. Just because some sources call it so does not mean that it is generally accepted to call this event an ethnic cleansing. The infobox should only contain generally accepted facts, and not opinions of some sources. We can also do another RFC on this, if you wish. Grandmaster 08:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Again you are misrepresenting the result of that unrelated discussion, the consensus was that specific article should not be renamed with many editors agreeing that a new article should be made covering the entire ethnic cleansing of Karabakh Armenians. It was a case of article titles, but this is not such a case, it’s a statement of fact in an infobox that is backed by peer-reviewed expert sources, I can provide much more sources If need be, this is not a fringe opinion and in fact most scholars (people who actually study ethnic cleansing) agree that this offensive did lead to a final ethnic cleansing of the Armenian population of Karabakh. Let’s discuss this here before jumping to RFC, that should only be done after extensive discussion not at the start. TagaworShah (talk) 17:52, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

How exactly did you establish that most scholars call this event an ethnic cleansing? What methodology did you use? I don't see that it is generally accepted to call this event an ethnic cleansing. Most international organizations, such as UN, OSCE, CoE, etc, do not use the term. There is no international court ruling establishing the fact. As for RFC, it is good to make decisions on such sensitive issues by consulting the wider Wikipedia community, to get a broader consensus. Grandmaster 09:09, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

I have added back ethnic cleansing with a few different sources. As @TagaworShah correctly noted, Grandmaster has misrepresented/misunderstood the discussion. The consensus was that a particular article's title should not be renamed due to the content; however, multiple reliable sources including [1] subject matter experts (genocide scholars), [2] peer-reviewed articles, and [3] at least two governments (PACE and France) [26] state that ethnic cleansing has happened. Multiple reliable sources also characterized the ongoing blockade, itself, as a form of ethnic cleansing or genocide. Genocide Studies International -- a peer-reviewed journal specializing in genocide studies -- published a special issue specifically on the crisis. [27] Four out of six articles in this special issue describe the situation as "ethnic cleansing."

Genocide experts themselves, in fact, call the situation "genocide," stating that "ethnic cleansing" is a euphemism for genocide denial.[28][29][30]" This consensus is clearly and succinctly summarized by the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention

"There is no doubt in the minds of experts in genocide prevention – at the Lemkin Institute, but also at Genocide Watch, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and among legal experts such as former ICC chief prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo – that what Armenians are facing from Azerbaijan is genocide." [31] Phantomette (chat) 15:54, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Most sources, most governments and international organizations do not call this an "ethnic cleansing". Most sources refer to this event as exodus/flight, etc. We cannot present opinions of some sources as a fact, especially the likes of Lemkin, who are a minor NGO and are nowhere near in authority to well established HRW or Amnesty who do not use the term "ethnic cleansing". Grandmaster 11:35, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Most subject-matter experts call this "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide" including the International Association for Genocide Scholars, the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention, Luis Moreno OCampo (former ICC chief proesecutor), and Genocide Watch.

Genocide Studies International – a peer-reviewed journal specializing in genocide studies – published a special edition specifically on the crisis. Four out of six articles in the edition describe the situation as "ethnic cleansing."

Agnieszka Klonowiecka-Milart and Sheila Paylan, both legal experts who are formerly affiliated with the United Nations stated that there is consensus among subject-matter experts:[32]

"Dr Bagheri nevertheless parrots Azerbaijan’s stance by stating in his article that “every individual is free to leave [Nagorno-Karabakh] if they are unhappy with Azerbaijan’s proposals”, adding that “the exact criteria for an act to be considered ethnic cleansing is not met in the case of [Nagorno-Karabakh]”. On this, he stands largely, if not completely, alone among international legal experts, several of whom have expressed the view that the displacement of the Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh was criminally forced."

In addition to the subject-matter experts, there are many other reputable sources that describe this as 'ethnic cleansing': including Laurence Broers, the Economist, the Conversation. Phantomette (chat) 15:20, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

How exactly did you establish that most sources call it "ethnic cleansing"? Do you have any statistical info? The ones you mention do not represent the majority view. Lemkin is an obscure NGO created as recently as 2021, and others are also no match to well-known human rights organizations such as HRW and Amnesty. If HRW and Amnesty do not use the term, why should we go with someone like Lemkin Institute? Ocampo is not a person with perfect reputation, with all the scandals he was involved in, plus he calls pretty much every conflict "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing". For example, he also uses these terms on Israel - Palestine conflict, which does not mean that his opinion should be given prominence there. As for scholars, there are many who express different views. But what's important here is that most states and international organizations do not call it "ethnic cleansing". USA, UK and Russia do not call it so. Missions by the UN and CoE did not come to a conclusion that there was ethnic cleansing. European parliament is the only exception, but its resolutions are not binding even on the EU itself, while the head of the European Commission refused to call it ethnic cleansing. The mainstream international media mostly uses words such as exodus/flight, etc to refer to the topic of this article. If there is no international consensus to call this event an ethnic cleansing, how can we claim it as a fact? Grandmaster 09:08, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The majority of subject-matter experts, including Genocide Watch, the Lemkin Institute, International Association for Genocide Scholars, Luis OCampo, Laurence Broers, and multiple authors in Genocide Studies International describe this as "ethnic cleansing" or "genocide".

That there is a consensus among subject-matter experts is made clear by the excerpt above by Klonowiecka-Milart and Paylan, peer-reviewed publications in journals, and various periodicals such as the Economist, the Conversation, and Atlas 24. This article also supports this consensus: "Genocide experts believe that Azeri policies including the nine-month blockade and attacks on civilian population centres amount to ethnic cleansing and genocide." citing additional genocide experts including Dr. Joanna Beata Michlic (Centre for Collective Violence, Holocaust and Genocide Studies at University College London) and Dr Elise Semerdjian (Strassler Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies).[33]

We must defer to the subject-matter experts on this whose claims are also echoed by numerous peer-reviewed publications and periodicals. Phantomette (chat) 15:24, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

• Just on one point—ethnic cleansing is not a legally recognized category in international law, so Amnesty/HRW/UN experts etc. not using this phrase cannot be taken as evidence for their disagreement that it applies to the situation. (The actions described as ethnic cleansing, though, would usually be classified as a war crime and/or crime against humanity.) (t · c) buidhe 01:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

  But it shows that it is not generally accepted to use that term, as the leading human rights organizations don't use it. The ones that use it are lesser known organizations such as Lemkin. Grandmaster 14:56, 28 February 2024 (UTC)