Draft talk:James Coolidge Octagon Cobblestone House

Fram

User:Fram moved this article, which was created in mainspace by me, to Draftspace, with edit summary "(A good example of why you have a topic ban against mainspace creations)". Technically this move is okay to do, though I don't agree with Fram's view, and I think their tone/participation here and sometimes elsewhere in Wikipedia.

This was in fact created in mainspace rather than draftspace by my accident in the creation process. This has also happened for several others out of many hundreds of articles created by me, where my logistical approach has been to hit copy on a row of data in a list-article that mentions a valid Wikipedia article topic, click on the redlink, then edit the url to change the article to be created to be in Draft space instead, and then paste. And then develop the article in draftspace. Several times, including this time, i have accidentally pasted the info in before editing the URL, and then saved it before realizing it was in mainspace. When that has happened, I have myself moved the article to draftspace and/or quickly developed it. I was proceeding with some development here when editor Fram takes swooped in with a "gotcha". I don't think this goes to prove what Fram thinks it proves, whatever. --Doncram (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

If I had wanted to use this as a gotcha, I would have posted it at AN or AE or wherever needed, together with your other violations, as a topic ban violation which needed a block. Instead, I moved it to draft space, end of story. But yes, the very poor quality of the entry showed why you have this restriction, and even without that restriction I would have moved this to draft space no matter who created it. Fram (talk) 14:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

No, the status of the article at the moment you found it and took your action does not show that. It is a fact that, given an article creation restriction in place, I can only directly create Draft articles, and there is no reason why those should immediately meet any quality standard at all. If i did not have that article restriction in place, I would not start a mainspace article at that level. I will walk away for a while now. --Doncram (talk) 14:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Considering that you consider it good enough to submit in this state[1] (one somewhat decent though very short source, one photo caption, one facebook page from the same as the first source), I don't think I have to argue my position any further. Fram (talk) 15:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)

Robert Palmer source on octagon cobblestone house

Here is a copy of the full passage about this James Coolidge Octagon House, excerpted from apparently reliable Richard Palmer text published (albeit with an error of omission of one word) on a blacklisted site in 2018 [BEGIN]

Only Existing Cobblestone Octagon House

This is believed to be the only cobblestone octagon house in existence, at 7271 Main Street in the village of Madison. It was built by James Coolidge 1850 who also built what is now known as the Landmark Tavern [which is NRHP-listed as Coolidge Stores Building ] in nearby Bouckville. Ground level inspection suggests this house is not a true octagon. However an aerial view confirms that it is. This may have originally been a common rectangular cobblestone house with the cobblestone effect added later. The other existing [octagonal] cobblestone building is a blacksmith shop in the hamlet of Alloway near Lyons, N.Y.

Age of the Octagon House

When Orson Fowler launched his octagon house crusade in 1848, he succeeded, at least for a while. His book went through some nine editions all through the 1850s. His architectural argument was simple: With an octagon form, you use fewer materials and hence less money while gaining more space. A circular form is the best and the octagon comes closest. To pragmatic Yankee builders in New York State more than anywhere else, the argument made sense, hence their overwhelming popularity there over any other state.

But his argument went further. An octagon also maximized window space, hence light. In the whale oil or burning fluid days before kerosene lamps or electricity, this also was attractive. And we need not overlook the curb appeal of having an octagon house, something all the neighbors could talk about. Having one built out of New York State's native cobblestone construction only made an octagon even more special.

This octagon features the same plain unostentatious early Italianate styling that Fowler himself proposed in his drawings. The simple cornice with its overhanging eaves is right out of the book. But this house also features exquisite twin column framing on either side of the entrance door, a reminder of the Neo-Classical elegance that was still popular in the United States.

But one feature this house has that is a radical departure from Fowler's simple octagon is the long rectangular section splitting the octagon in two. Why? Well a simple answer might be a desire for more space without resorting to a giant octagon. But another possibility is that it rectifies a basic problem that all octagons had: lack of wall space against which to place your furniture.

Simply put, multiple oblique angles plus frequent windows do not leave much space for furniture, a rather serious drawback. How does one fit a dresser in an oblique corner? You can't. So the only space left is the back wall opposite the windows, but then that is where all your doors and rooms have to be. It was a major problem for octagon house owners with furniture.

This house solves that problem, using Yankee ingenuity, by creating a straight section between the half octagons. The best of both worlds? It certainly makes for a unique house.

It is believed there were between 4,000 to 6,000 octagon buildings constructed, only which only about 400 still exist. For further information on octagon buildings go to: http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/main_page.html [END]

References

--Doncram (talk) 16:38, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Doncram notes

Moving from main article body so they're preserved. Star Mississippi 01:20, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Verbatim:

Any more Quotes to take??? The Richard Palmer text published (with an error, but otherwise self-evidently authoritative) on blacklisted site: "Only Existing Cobblestone Octagon House: This is believed to be the only cobblestone octagon house in existence, at 7271 Main Street in the village of Madison. It was built by James Coolidge 1850 who also built what is now known as the Landmark Tavern [which is NRHP-listed as Coolidge Stores Building ] in nearby Bouckville. Ground level inspection suggests this house is not a true octagon. However an aerial view confirms that it is. This may have originally been a common rectangular cobblestone house with the cobblestone effect added later. The other existing cobblestone building is a blacksmith shop in the hamlet of Alloway near Lyons, N.Y."

"Age of the Octagon House: / When Orson Fowler launched his octagon house crusade in 1848, he succeeded, at least for a while. His book went through some nine editions all through the 1850s. His architectural argument was simple: With an octagon form, you use fewer materials and hence less money while gaining more space. A circular form is the best and the octagon comes closest. To pragmatic Yankee builders in New York State more than anywhere else, the argument made sense, hence their overwhelming popularity there over any other state. / But his argument went further. An octagon also maximized window space, hence light. In the whale oil or burning fluid days before kerosene lamps or electricity, this also was attractive. And we need not overlook the curb appeal of having an octagon house, something all the neighbors could talk about. Having one built out of New York State's native cobblestone construction only made an octagon even more special. / This octagon features the same plain unostentatious early Italianate styling that Fowler himself proposed in his drawings. The simple cornice with its overhanging eaves is right out of the book. But this house also features exquisite twin column framing on either side of the entrance door, a reminder of the Neo-Classical elegance that was still popular in the United States. / But one feature this house has that is a radical departure from Fowler's simple octagon is the long rectangular section splitting the octagon in two. Why? Well a simple answer might be a desire for more space without resorting to a giant octagon. But another possibility is that it rectifies a basic problem that all octagons had: lack of wall space against which to place your furniture. / Simply put, multiple oblique angles plus frequent windows do not leave much space for furniture, a rather serious drawback. How does one fit a dresser in an oblique corner? You can't. So the only space left is the back wall opposite the windows, but then that is where all your doors and rooms have to be. It was a major problem for octagon house owners with furniture. / This house solves that problem, using Yankee ingenuity, by creating a straight section between the half octagons. The best of both worlds? It certainly makes for a unique house. / It is believed there were between 4,000 to 6,000 octagon buildings constructed, only which only about 400 still exist. For further information on octagon buildings go to: http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/main_page.html"

The Wayback Machine captured much of the same passage, closing off sooner, and signed by (D.Hanna, PhD) not unsigned and hence attributed by this Wikipedia editor to Palmer, who evidently posted the texts and photos. This was apparently posted in September 2016, while the above version was apparently posted in March 2018. The Hanna passage has no date given. It could have been written much earlier. Caption which was apparently below photos reads:

   7271 Route 20, north side, village of Madison, built by James Coolidge in 1850, the same builder of the Cobblestone Store (Landmark Tavern) in Bouckville. The fact that this is not a full octagon house suggests the octagon facade may have been a later addition to an already existing structure of an earlier period.

Main passage starts:

   When Orson Fowler launched his octagon house crusade in 1848, h

It ends:

  This house solves that problem, using Yankee ingenuity, by creating a straight section between the half octagons. The best of both worlds? It certainly makes for a unique house. (D. Hanna, PhD). 

It was posted 2016/09 at URL which cannot be stated.

The 3rd version, with D. Hanna name attached, is at Cobblestone Museum's site(?), at https://www.cobblestonemuseum.org/CobblestoneStructuresCatalog/CMPubs/Age%20of%20the%20Octagon%20House.htm It ends with (D. Hanna, PhD) then "It is believed there were between 4,000 to 6,000 octagon buildings constructed, only which only about 400 still exist. For further information on octagon buildings go to: http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/main_page.html." That last appeared in one of Palmer's versions. As of 9/1/2022 the bobanna.com page is dead, but at Wayback machine it is there in full. 127 captures from 2004 until this one, 2021-10-28 done. https://web.archive.org/web/20211028120921/https://www.octagon.bobanna.com/main_page.html Near top is "This site is copyrighted (c) 2002, 2016-17 by Robert Kline, and developed and maintained by Robert Kline and Ellen Puerzer. Many photos are copyrighted or controlled. Please mention this site if using any of the information contained herein. Write for permission to use photos and you'll be directed to copyright owner. / We recieve many unidentified photos via emails. If you own the rights to a photo on this site, please let us know and we will add a photo credit." But is this same or different than Dale Travis site? Dale Travis is credited for a photo within Canada section i notice. --Doncram (talk) 06:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)

The 3rd version also links out from the phrase "Having one built out of New York State's native cobblestone construction only made an octagon even more special." linking to https://www.cobblestonemuseum.org/CobblestoneStructuresCatalog/Mad-5%20Gerow%20Mad-7.htm, where photos of the house appear. It includes same 3 photos as at Palmer's, with credit explicitly to him. And it includes 11 other photos with credits.

The Kline site RE this house can be seen in Wayback at its section for Madison County.https://web.archive.org/web/20211019013805/http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/NY_A_M.html Eight photos are identified, you have to left-click to see them, or they are at:

• Two images at one url:
• https://web.archive.org/web/20120914175234/http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/images/madison_ny_1.jpg
• https://web.archive.org/web/20120916124327/http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/images/madison_ny_2_protected.jpg

... but I sent too many requests to Internet Archive for a while

• https://web.archive.org/web/20211019013805/http://www.octagon.bobanna.com/images/madison_ny_6.jpg Not archived.

Dale Travis's site on Round Barns is http://www.dalejtravis.com/ Ontario barns are two: http://www.dalejtravis.com/barn/ontario/htm/on03502.htm http://www.dalejtravis.com/barn/ontario/htm/on03203.htm S of Osgoode one i got But he does not have the more spectacular one.

References

JSTOR, New York Antiques

@Netherzone and FloridaArmy:, any chance you're able to access this source if & when you have a chance? Abstract makes me think it may have something on this house, but I can't tell. No worries if not and thanks as always. Star Mississippi 01:30, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

I can view the source all it says about this structure is:

OCTAGON BUILDINGS IN NEW YORK STATE (as of February 1952) [item #44]

44. Madison. House, built about 1840 by Dr. James Coolidge of glacial cobblestones carefully matched and cemented together. Netherzone (talk) 02:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Well that was a bust! Thanks, as always @Netherzone. Star Mississippi 02:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)