Category talk:Cossack Wikipedians
Can anyone explain why the template "This user is a proud descendant of Cossacks." bears the coat of arms of the Russian empire? Why particularly that empire and not the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, or any other? --Hillock65 20:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- What difference does it make to a non-Cossack? --Kuban Cossack 22:39, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- In the same way that the greater Coat of Arms of Ukraine have nothing to do with the Zaporozhian Cossacks. In fact to answer your question to which Empire did they swear an oath of eternal loyalty? To which Empror did their descendants make a personal guard? Besides are forgetting that Zaporozhian Cossacks were only one of the many that lived, and as their descendor, I find it distastefull to privatise history to only one modern country, neglecting btw other Cossack hosts. --Kuban Cossack 22:42, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you object to the coat of arms of Ukraine, then express your grievances. As far as the silly argument of Cossack and non-Cossack, that is beyond the point (see WP:OWN). This encyclopedia is for all users, and does not belong to some, who for some inexplicable reason think of themselves as Cossacks. Russian empire is the one that destroyed the Zaporozhian host and dispersed them. Using that coat of arms in relation to all Cossacks smacks of imperialism. Please consider neutral symbols in reference to all Cossacks. If you want to specify the turncoats who swore allegiance to those, who persecuted and disbanded them, them chose another name for this category. Not wishing another confrontation and revert war, I suggest you chose a neutral picture that does not offer loaded imperialist innuendos. --Hillock65 23:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Per same argument, and actually the host was not destroyed, in fact in a few years the host of loyal Zaporozhians under Anton Golovaty would rally thousands. Then opening the new frontiers of the Kuban, even the Danubian Host in 1828 returned to Russia and moved to the Azov. No imperialism here, in the 19th century all Cossacks were Russian. Pure fact. How about the Don Cossack host (which was ALWAYS larger than Zaporozhia in men and armies) was that not one of the biggest pro-Russian Empire hosts? Terek Cossacks, Astrakhan, Ussuri, Zabaikal, Ural are they too not Cossacks? Since when can an Uman image also apply to all Cossacks. Your grievences and inability to "privatise" history is not a reason to claim false consensus. Moreover as you are not a Cossack I recommend you don't get involved in applying rationales to issues that do not concern you. If you do not like create a separate template and use it as such. --Kuban Cossack 16:35, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you object to the coat of arms of Ukraine, then express your grievances. As far as the silly argument of Cossack and non-Cossack, that is beyond the point (see WP:OWN). This encyclopedia is for all users, and does not belong to some, who for some inexplicable reason think of themselves as Cossacks. Russian empire is the one that destroyed the Zaporozhian host and dispersed them. Using that coat of arms in relation to all Cossacks smacks of imperialism. Please consider neutral symbols in reference to all Cossacks. If you want to specify the turncoats who swore allegiance to those, who persecuted and disbanded them, them chose another name for this category. Not wishing another confrontation and revert war, I suggest you chose a neutral picture that does not offer loaded imperialist innuendos. --Hillock65 23:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Guys, my suggestion is this: create two separate templates, {{User Russian Cossack}} and {{User Ukrainian Cossack}}, the User Ukrainian Cossack template being based off of {{User Zaporozh Cossack}} (which is better than the currently standing one in the category (with Great COA of Ukraine) btw).. Or (perhaps the best solution IMHO), do the Userbox migration and move the template to a usersub page. —dima/talk/ 16:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Russian by ethnicity or nationality? No ain't going to work here. First of all stating that Zaporozhian Cossacks = Ukrainian Cossacks is a POV. For that fact the only real Cossacks in Ukraine would live in the far corner of the Lugansk Oblast which is technically the Don Host ethnic territory. So what are Ukrainian Cossacks? Those that dress up and maximum do a parade or clash with police (versus 250 thousand men in Russia who have their own army brigades, aircraft, we Kuban Cossacks alone have a VDV battalion, a Motostrelkovy regiment and a whole border guard sector on the Russian-Georgian border, in addition to the thousands of Cossacks that regularly undergo maneuvers, policing (yes the local Stanitsa sotnias now operate as part of the militsiya force, including OMON) and of course to the thousand of Cossacks who are permanently stationed in Abkhazia, after conquering that land with the natives in the early 1990s - and what does Ukraine have compared to that? Clowns?). Likewise how do you explain Nağaybäk Cossacks? They are Russian (by nationality) but not by ethnicity? We can of course create about ~20 templates for every host but what is the point in that? --Kuban Cossack 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- A neutral suggestion would be to perform the Userbox migration moving {{User Cossack}} and {{User Zaporozh Cossack}} to someone's userspace (I am willing to "adopt" and host the userboxes in my userspace provided that they are neutrally named i.e. User Cossack1, User Cossack2, ect.. If we just want one template for all to use, then let us have no image at all. —dima/talk/ 17:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, in order to keep this discussion civil and respectful, please refrain from editing other people's comments. If you have something to say, please use the new line and express your grievances without distorting your opponents' message. Secondly, your own distorted view on Cossacks has very little bearing on what should this template look like. You have the right to believe whatever you want. The fact remains, per (WP:OWN) an attempt to privatize the name of Cossacks will not be tolerated, as well as silly arguments about who is Cossack and who is not. It is not for you to determine. The use of Russian imperial coat of arms in relation to all Cossacks is another chapter in growing mountain of evidence that you continue to push the Russian neo-imperialist agenda on Wikipedia. Please read carefully (WP:SOAP). I don't want a revert war, please choose whatever picture you want to, except most definitely not the Russian imperial one. It is non-neutral and is offensive. Be considerate of others. --Hillock65 17:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- My view is not distorted, it is a Cossack's view, and WP:OWN applies to you and to those who wish to privatise history to a group who ceased to exist more than two centuries ago. Pushing in Ukrainian symbols to symbolise all Cossacks is an equal POV and even more rediculous, since Ukraine first came into existance more than 100 years after the Zaporozhian Host's Cossacks' left what is now Ukraine. Like I said with the sole exception of the far corner of the Lugansk Obalst there are no Cossacks in Ukraine. Whereas according to the 2002 census alone, there are 140,028 ethnic Cossacks alone. Pathetic Revisionism and "шо не зъйим то повидкусую" approach fully violates WP:SOAP and WP:POINT. If I was to apply the same reasoning to the coat of Arms at Template:Ukrainians? --Kuban Cossack 18:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I do not care what image refers to all Cossacks, as long as it is not Russian, Imperial of Ukrainian. Please feel free to chose whatever you want, except Russian, Ukrainian or Imperial symbols. Cossacks are a part of Ukrainian history and an attempt to tie them exclusively to the Russian Empire will not be tolerated. Chose whatever you want but neutral. Please no tridents, two-headed birds, blue and yellow or tricolor flags. I thougt a picture of a Cossack with a rifle is neither Ukrainian or Russian and was neutral enough irrespective of who made it. Secondly, please refrain from personal attacks and demeaning comments in a foreign language. Please see (WP:NPA). Remain civil and try to find a compromise instead to flaming up passions. --Hillock65 18:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Remember that the Zaporozhian Cossacks, who you so much want to be part of Ukrainian history, are also equally part of Russian history considering that you did not exist back then so you would not know on how loyal/unloyal they were to Ukraine/Russia (even though the former did not exist then...). In any case would a majority play a role? For example the Zaporozhian sech in all its might in 1775 had 20 thousand men. In 1893 the Cossack hosts in Russia had a total population of 2,648,049. Now then surely numbers alone play a role? Same argument withTemplate:Ukrainians which would deserve a change in the coat of arms seeing that the Ukrainian diaspora makes a minority larger than the Sech Cossacks made to other Cossack hosts. I don't like double standards, so make choice, we alter both templates or we leave both as they were. Besides the Cossack one is strictly a userbox, which anyone can code and choose to display. --Kuban Cossack 18:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- I do not care what image refers to all Cossacks, as long as it is not Russian, Imperial of Ukrainian. Please feel free to chose whatever you want, except Russian, Ukrainian or Imperial symbols. Cossacks are a part of Ukrainian history and an attempt to tie them exclusively to the Russian Empire will not be tolerated. Chose whatever you want but neutral. Please no tridents, two-headed birds, blue and yellow or tricolor flags. I thougt a picture of a Cossack with a rifle is neither Ukrainian or Russian and was neutral enough irrespective of who made it. Secondly, please refrain from personal attacks and demeaning comments in a foreign language. Please see (WP:NPA). Remain civil and try to find a compromise instead to flaming up passions. --Hillock65 18:16, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Fine, I am glad to see that you've finally come to your senses. The picture of Kubanka is hardly neutral for all Cossacks, but at least it is more neutral and less insulting than that pathetic two-headed bird. I won't object to Cossack hat if you promise not to change it again. I consider the matter closed now. I wish you happy editing. --Hillock65 18:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- My view is not distorted, it is a Cossack's view, and WP:OWN applies to you and to those who wish to privatise history to a group who ceased to exist more than two centuries ago. Pushing in Ukrainian symbols to symbolise all Cossacks is an equal POV and even more rediculous, since Ukraine first came into existance more than 100 years after the Zaporozhian Host's Cossacks' left what is now Ukraine. Like I said with the sole exception of the far corner of the Lugansk Obalst there are no Cossacks in Ukraine. Whereas according to the 2002 census alone, there are 140,028 ethnic Cossacks alone. Pathetic Revisionism and "шо не зъйим то повидкусую" approach fully violates WP:SOAP and WP:POINT. If I was to apply the same reasoning to the coat of Arms at Template:Ukrainians? --Kuban Cossack 18:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- First of all, in order to keep this discussion civil and respectful, please refrain from editing other people's comments. If you have something to say, please use the new line and express your grievances without distorting your opponents' message. Secondly, your own distorted view on Cossacks has very little bearing on what should this template look like. You have the right to believe whatever you want. The fact remains, per (WP:OWN) an attempt to privatize the name of Cossacks will not be tolerated, as well as silly arguments about who is Cossack and who is not. It is not for you to determine. The use of Russian imperial coat of arms in relation to all Cossacks is another chapter in growing mountain of evidence that you continue to push the Russian neo-imperialist agenda on Wikipedia. Please read carefully (WP:SOAP). I don't want a revert war, please choose whatever picture you want to, except most definitely not the Russian imperial one. It is non-neutral and is offensive. Be considerate of others. --Hillock65 17:57, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- A neutral suggestion would be to perform the Userbox migration moving {{User Cossack}} and {{User Zaporozh Cossack}} to someone's userspace (I am willing to "adopt" and host the userboxes in my userspace provided that they are neutrally named i.e. User Cossack1, User Cossack2, ect.. If we just want one template for all to use, then let us have no image at all. —dima/talk/ 17:27, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Russian by ethnicity or nationality? No ain't going to work here. First of all stating that Zaporozhian Cossacks = Ukrainian Cossacks is a POV. For that fact the only real Cossacks in Ukraine would live in the far corner of the Lugansk Oblast which is technically the Don Host ethnic territory. So what are Ukrainian Cossacks? Those that dress up and maximum do a parade or clash with police (versus 250 thousand men in Russia who have their own army brigades, aircraft, we Kuban Cossacks alone have a VDV battalion, a Motostrelkovy regiment and a whole border guard sector on the Russian-Georgian border, in addition to the thousands of Cossacks that regularly undergo maneuvers, policing (yes the local Stanitsa sotnias now operate as part of the militsiya force, including OMON) and of course to the thousand of Cossacks who are permanently stationed in Abkhazia, after conquering that land with the natives in the early 1990s - and what does Ukraine have compared to that? Clowns?). Likewise how do you explain Nağaybäk Cossacks? They are Russian (by nationality) but not by ethnicity? We can of course create about ~20 templates for every host but what is the point in that? --Kuban Cossack 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I see you are itching for a confrontation and even erased my preceding good faith comment. Given your views on history distorted by Russian nationalism and imperialism I do not wish to debate with you. My policy is generally to feel compassion towards people, who worship and proudly display 20-th century worst murderers on their talk pages. So, again, if you keep the template neutral with the Cossack hat, I consider the matter closed. Take good care of yourself and happy editing. No further comments at this time. --Hillock65 18:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you for the wish, although I would look in the mirror before accusations of distortions. For the record I am not a nationalist, and not even an imperialist, I hold my Cossack oath, as many of my forefathers held before me to my beloved Kuban and to my vast motherland. Please comment on the edit not the contributor. Happy edits, мой друг. --Kuban Cossack 19:24, 8 August 2007 (UTC)