Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)
See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability for a discussion from January to March 2022 which reached a consensus to revise various aspects of the sports-specific notability guidelines. |
Relation to general notability guideline Q1: How is this guideline related to the general notability guideline?
A1: The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. They are intended only to stop an article from being quickly deleted when there is very strong reason to believe that significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from multiple reliable sources is available, given sufficient time to locate it.[1][2][3][4] Wikipedia's standard for including an article about a given person is not based on whether or not they have attained certain achievements, but on whether or not the person has received appropriate coverage in reliable sources, in accordance with the general notability guideline. Also refer to Wikipedia's basic guidance on the notability of people for additional information on evaluating notability. Q2: If a sports figure meets the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean they do not have to meet the general notability guideline?
A2: No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. Although the criteria for a given sport should be chosen to be a very reliable predictor of the availability of appropriate secondary coverage from reliable sources, there can be exceptions. For contemporary persons, given a reasonable amount of time to locate appropriate sources, the general notability guideline should be met in order for an article to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. (For subjects in the past where it is more difficult to locate sources, it may be necessary to evaluate the subject's likely notability based on other persons of the same time period with similar characteristics.) Q3: If a sports figure does not meet the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean they do not meet Wikipedia's notability standards?
A3: No, it does not mean this—if the subject meets the general notability guideline, then they meet Wikipedia's standards for having an article in Wikipedia, even if they do not meet the criteria for the appropriate sports-specific notability guideline. The sports-specific notability guidelines are not intended to set a higher bar for inclusion in Wikipedia: they are meant to provide some buffer time to locate appropriate reliable sources when, based on rules of thumb, it is highly likely that these sources exist. Q4: What is considered a "reasonable amount of time" to uncover appropriate sources?
A4: There is no fixed rule, as it may differ in each specific case. Generally, though, since there is no fixed schedule to complete Wikipedia articles, given a reasonable expectation that sources can be found, Wikipedia editors have been very liberal in allowing for adequate time, particularly for cases where English-language sources are difficult to find. For a contemporary sports figure in a sport that is regularly covered by national media in English, less leeway may be given. Proposing revisions to Notability (sports) Q6: I want to create a new sports-specific notability guideline or revise an existing one. What approach should I take?
A6: Consider what criteria that, if met, means that the sports figure is highly likely to have significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from reliable sources. Test your proposed criteria by trying to find persons who meet them but do not have appropriate secondary coverage. It's best to keep your criteria fairly conservative, since for most contemporary persons, establishing notability via the general notability guideline is straightforward enough and the additional buffer time provided by a sports-specific notability guideline isn't needed, so trying to draw a more liberal line isn't worth the effort.
Many discussions on rules of thumb start with, "This league/championship is important," or "This sport is popular in country X." While these arguments provide indirect evidence, a much better way to reach an agreement is to double-check if everyone meeting the proposed criteria has appropriate sources meeting the general notability guideline. For example, for an individual championship, you can list everyone who has won the championship and, for each person, the corresponding sources that show they meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. Subsequent to the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability, proposing a guideline for the notability of an athlete purely based on their participation in a non-championship final or non-Olympic event is likely to meet opposition. Note the "nutshell summary" and the "Basic criteria" section are high-level descriptions of the type of criteria used by each sport. This does not mean that any criteria that fit these descriptions are suitable. You must demonstrate that the proposed criteria are effective as a way to determine if a subject meets the general notability guideline.Q7: What constitutes "non-routine" secondary coverage for sports?
A7: Routine news coverage of sporting events, such as descriptions of what occurred, is not considered to be sufficient basis for an article, following Wikipedia's policy of not being a place for routine news coverage. There should be significant coverage directly related to the subject. In addition to Wikipedia's guidance on reliable sources, also see Wikipedia's guidance on biographies of living persons for more information. Q8: But these athletes have won championship X; surely that makes them notable?
A8: For better or worse, discussions in Wikipedia use the term "notable" as a shorthand for "meets Wikipedia's standards for inclusion in the encyclopedia". As a result, there are many subjects that can meet the everyday meaning of notable, yet fail to meet Wikipedia's standards for having an article. References
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Apparently changing "presumed notability" to "presumed coverage" in our sport-specific guidance is still, somehow, controversial?[edit]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The current language implies either that medaling in a competition with more than three participants is an indicator of presumed notability, or that medaling when there are ≤3 competitors affords the same presumptions as when there are 4+ (because the latter also is not an indicator of presumed notability). The original intent of this wording was to distinguish between these two groups re: notability guidance, so to retain that distinction the language should reflect our updated presumptions.Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan. However, winning a medal in a competition with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants receive a medal) is not an indicator of presumed notability, and other exceptions may be listed at sport specific guidelines.
This really should not be controversial. JoelleJay (talk) 02:51, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- Can you please post an additional diff showing why you think this was an oversight? Because presumed notability appears several times around that passage, but presumed coverage does not exist in the article and the exact phrase has only been used 49 times on Wikipedia according to a quick search. SportingFlyer T·C 20:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
- ...did you miss that whole RfC and the followups? Here is when the guideline stabilized with all instances of "presumed notable" supposed to be replaced with "significant coverage is likely to exist". The term doesn't have to be "presumed coverage", the point is to remove the "presumed notable" language. JoelleJay (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's been over ten months since that closed. I don't mind the edit, but the problem with that particular sentence is that changing it from presumed notable to presumed coverage makes the entire thing worse/less clear. At least the current edit makes clear someone who got an Olympics participation trophy isn't entitled to an article. I think options are removing entirely or changing it to something like ...
Laurentia Tan, unless the athlete competed in an event with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants received a medal.)
SportingFlyer T·C 17:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)- I think your suggested wording is great. I'll implement it. JoelleJay (talk) 19:48, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Does anyone have an objection to my implementing this? @Cbl62? I tried to do so earlier but was reverted again by @Cassiopeia despite this discussion having a pretty uniform consensus against retaining "presumed notable" and for "likely to have...". JoelleJay (talk) 01:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- T-N-T! T-N-T! T-N-T! ;) On a more serious note, I have no objection to the change. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- What specifically is the proposed change? Which section/paragraph and which specific substitution? Such is not stated anywhere in this thread.North8000 (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- The section in question is the green text in my first post, the proposed change is the green text in SF's comment. It's an extremely minor change that simply makes the guidance consistent with everywhere else. JoelleJay (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- OK, just leave it as "you should be able to figure it out" instead of distilling it into a clear proposed change. So, with that narrowing, you are asking about 2 people for feedback. :-) North8000 (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
changed toSignificant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan. However, winning a medal in a competition with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants receive a medal) is not an indicator of presumed notability, and other exceptions may be listed at sport specific guidelines.
JoelleJay (talk) 05:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan, unless the athlete competed in an event with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants received a medal.) Other exceptions may be listed at sport-specific guidelines.
- OK, just leave it as "you should be able to figure it out" instead of distilling it into a clear proposed change. So, with that narrowing, you are asking about 2 people for feedback. :-) North8000 (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- The section in question is the green text in my first post, the proposed change is the green text in SF's comment. It's an extremely minor change that simply makes the guidance consistent with everywhere else. JoelleJay (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- Does anyone have an objection to my implementing this? @Cbl62? I tried to do so earlier but was reverted again by @Cassiopeia despite this discussion having a pretty uniform consensus against retaining "presumed notable" and for "likely to have...". JoelleJay (talk) 01:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- I think your suggested wording is great. I'll implement it. JoelleJay (talk) 19:48, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's been over ten months since that closed. I don't mind the edit, but the problem with that particular sentence is that changing it from presumed notable to presumed coverage makes the entire thing worse/less clear. At least the current edit makes clear someone who got an Olympics participation trophy isn't entitled to an article. I think options are removing entirely or changing it to something like ...
- ...did you miss that whole RfC and the followups? Here is when the guideline stabilized with all instances of "presumed notable" supposed to be replaced with "significant coverage is likely to exist". The term doesn't have to be "presumed coverage", the point is to remove the "presumed notable" language. JoelleJay (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
In 2022 RfA, we've used "likely to have received significant coverage" as the operative language. I support that. The phrase "presumed coverage" strikes me as something that can and would be misconstrued. At Afd, we generally don't allow folks to rely on a "presumption" that SIGCOV exists. To the contrary, we generally require that "actual" SIGCOV be presented. Cbl62 (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- At this point, I think it'd be best just to apply some TNT. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:35, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am working on a draft. - Enos733 (talk) 03:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Don't mean to be rude, but that won't work. An American football player must be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (i.e. one of the greatest 300 figures ever, when there's probably 50,000 notable figures) to be considered as "likely" to have significant coverage? That is only going to result in nominations for deletion like "isn't in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not notable" or "only was a starter in the NFL for six full seasons, not notable" – which are plainly ridiculous. The players in the Big Four leagues having presumed notability for playing a game is the only thing that made sense (especially post-1930, that criteria really worked); and although I know the anti-sports editors will never let this page return to sense like that, restricting it to only the greatest ever would only encourage silly time-wasting deletion nominations. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- My sense was that this edit is very narrowly construed to the Olympic games part of NSPORT. SportingFlyer T·C 17:27, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Don't mean to be rude, but that won't work. An American football player must be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (i.e. one of the greatest 300 figures ever, when there's probably 50,000 notable figures) to be considered as "likely" to have significant coverage? That is only going to result in nominations for deletion like "isn't in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not notable" or "only was a starter in the NFL for six full seasons, not notable" – which are plainly ridiculous. The players in the Big Four leagues having presumed notability for playing a game is the only thing that made sense (especially post-1930, that criteria really worked); and although I know the anti-sports editors will never let this page return to sense like that, restricting it to only the greatest ever would only encourage silly time-wasting deletion nominations. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:05, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- I am working on a draft. - Enos733 (talk) 03:46, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
I think that regarding short term effect those terms are all the same.....they mean "OK'd by the SNG". In the bigger vaguer picture, "significant coverage is likely to exist" might be better because it follows the pattern of nearly all SNG wording by giving deference to the GNG coverage criteria and the need to establish it if questioned. Whereas "presumed notable" can be read as granting it irrespective of GNG coverage and "Presumed coverage" can be read that suitable coverage is presumed to exist rather than needing to be established if questioned. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
- Please note that for a subject to be notable (GNG), the subject needs to have Significant coverage by independent, reliable sources where by the subject is talked about in lenght and in depth and not passing mentioned. If a SNG indicate certain criteria to be notable in Wikiedia, let's a say XX sport needs to be world top ten ranking by certain source or a medal holder for certain sport, then in regardless how significant coverage a subject is, if the coverage is all about routine tournaments or the results that would considered routine report and can NOT be used to contribute to meet GNG unless the sources talk about somethings else of the subject. So in short, presume significant coverage does not means presume notable - it is a big different here. In Wikipedia, we always set GNG criteria as the first and most important one. Cassiopeia talk 06:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- ...why did you revert this extremely minor change again, asking for a link to the talk page discussion that I pinged you to yesterday? JoelleJay (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- I don't get it at this point. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- ...why did you revert this extremely minor change again, asking for a link to the talk page discussion that I pinged you to yesterday? JoelleJay (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
- User:JoelleJay Again, pls provide the links where consensus has been achieved and close by other editor which does not vote the changes as per norm. I have no objection if the changes is consensus and an editor who is not involved with the vote has closed the discussion with the conclusion changes is supported as this is not only the Wikipedia norm for any changes in Wikipedia guidelines and especially about notability/specific notability guidelines, any changes, regardless how minor, is important as per interpretation/definition for it should not take it lightly at all. Pls understand, I come in good will and try to serve Wikipedia as per it agendas, guidelines, and norms. Get someone who is not involved and closed the discussion. Whatever, the closing outcome, I will be OK with it. Stay safe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassiopeia (talk • contribs)
- Unlike the (unintentional) case with my initial BOLD edits, this current edit is not a substantive change to the guideline, and especially because we also have unanimous support for the proposed wording, it does not need formal closure.
Changes may be made if there are no objections or if the discussion shows there is consensus for the change. Minor edits to improve formatting, grammar, and clarity may be made at any time.
JoelleJay (talk) 00:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- Unlike the (unintentional) case with my initial BOLD edits, this current edit is not a substantive change to the guideline, and especially because we also have unanimous support for the proposed wording, it does not need formal closure.
- The norm is to get an editor, dont need to be an admin, to close the discussion and state the result. If there is unanimous decision, then it is easy to close the discussion (usually after 7 days the discussion has raised). It is better to be slow and do the what it takes then just change in such manner especially about notablity which is one of the most important topic in Wikipedia and it is not hard to find an interested editor to do the closing (for I dont see "each" editor state "support" of the wording change for at least I am the one of the editors state a closing should be done" since I did not vote support so it is not an unanimous support for this topic. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 01:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- That is the norm for substantive changes; clarifying the wording of a guideline in a way that 100% reflects pre-existing consensus (and now also represents unanimous consensus among editors who have actually opined on the proposed wording) falls under
Minor edits to improve formatting, grammar, and clarity may be made at any time.
Meanwhile, your continued reverts do fall afoul of policyConsequently, you should not remove any change solely on the grounds that there was no formal discussion indicating consensus for the change before it was made. Instead, you should give a substantive reason for challenging it either in your edit summary or on the talk page.
Frankly, you should not be policing this area if you do not have the language proficiency to understand the changes being made. JoelleJay (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- That is the norm for substantive changes; clarifying the wording of a guideline in a way that 100% reflects pre-existing consensus (and now also represents unanimous consensus among editors who have actually opined on the proposed wording) falls under
- The norm is to get an editor, dont need to be an admin, to close the discussion and state the result. If there is unanimous decision, then it is easy to close the discussion (usually after 7 days the discussion has raised). It is better to be slow and do the what it takes then just change in such manner especially about notablity which is one of the most important topic in Wikipedia and it is not hard to find an interested editor to do the closing (for I dont see "each" editor state "support" of the wording change for at least I am the one of the editors state a closing should be done" since I did not vote support so it is not an unanimous support for this topic. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 01:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- I pointed my view which every editor allow in good will to do here and not arguing with your info but you seem attacking my English which is my second language. To get someone not involve to close the discussion is a easy manner but I guess you are not willing to do so. I have nothing more to add. Cassiopeia talk 08:00, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's really not something that we need an RfC over, especially considering we now have six editors who have approved of it explicitly or implicitly. SportingFlyer T·C 18:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- I've restored the edit. SportingFlyer T·C 18:54, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's really not something that we need an RfC over, especially considering we now have six editors who have approved of it explicitly or implicitly. SportingFlyer T·C 18:52, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Guidelines for wrestlers/judoka/grapplers[edit]
I see them for boxing, kickboxing, and MMA, but not for wrestlers, judoka, and other grappling sports (besides sumo). Seems like a big oversight considering wrestling and judo are Olympic sports. Am I missing something or have these just not been structured yet? Spagooder (talk) 23:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
IAAF is now World Athletics[edit]
Regarding the Athletics/track & field and long-distance running section, the IAAF has renamed itself World Athletics. (The IAAF page has also been renamed.) Zatsugaku (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
What's happened to NFOOTBALL?[edit]
I'm looking for guidance on notability criteria for professional (association) footballers, but WP:NFOOTY seems to have disappeared from this article. I've found some old discussions about it and proposals for change but can't see what the current guidance is? Can anyone help? Orange sticker (talk) 08:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- Can you find multiple sources of significant coverage about the subject? Then he is likely notable. If he doesn't, he likely is not Alvaldi (talk) 13:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- No. I was just hoping there was clearer and easier criteria as in other sports, as this player did play at international level and in a World Cup (see this Article for Deletion). Thanks! Orange sticker (talk) 13:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- At the end of the section it now redirects to, it reads:
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagumba (talk • contribs)Sports which are not listed on this page should defer to the § Basic criteria for guidance. This includes both those which were never listed, and those which were but have since been removed, most recently following an RfC from January–March 2022.
- There was consensus in a 2022 RfC to remove solely participation-based criteria. See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability#202203070648_Wugapodes_2. There was then consensus while implementing the RfC to remove NFOOTY because it was solely participation-based, and discussion regarding an alternative was tabled. See Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 49#Association football (soccer). voorts (talk/contributions) 03:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)
Bobsleigh and skeleton[edit]
Recently, I've been looking through articles of winter sport atheletes and doing a quick copy-edit on them, especially bobsleigh and skeleton. However, I noticed every one-time Winter Olympics participant has been documented even if they're not notable. A lot of them are also poorly-sourced or poorly-written stubs. I was wondering if there was clearer and easier criteria for these types of atheletes; otherwise, we may assume their articles pass WP:SPORTBASIC? Specifically, even for two or four-person bobsleigh, do they need to be in top ten of every bobsleigh tournament according to IBSF to be considered notable? CuteDolphin712 (talk) 10:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Bridge[edit]
I propose the following for inclusion to the main article.
I will ask other Bridge editors to comment and add.
Bridge[edit]
(Note: I am not sure how to create Shortcuts, nor how to check with conflicts with other shortcuts on other topics. The shortcut WP:BRIDGE refers to physical bridges)
- Significant coverage is likely to exist for Bridge players if they
- Have won a medal at an international event at the senior, open, womens, mixed, youth or junior level. International events include the European Championship, World Championships and North American Bridge Championships (NABCs).
- Have placed first or second in a major North American Bridge Championships. Major events are Vanderbilt, Spingold, Soloway or Reisinger.
- Have won an open, mixed, senior or women's North American Bridge Championships.
- Have been elected to the Hall of Fame in their National Bridge Organization (NBO)
Discussion information:
European and World events award medals. NABCs do not.
Other National Bridge Organizations (NBOs) may have appropriate qualifications. For example someone in the Hall of Fame for a NBO.
- Oppose The proposal shows no evidence that individuals with these honors have recieved significant coverage. Alvaldi (talk) 10:28, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose. For new guidelines we need extensive evidence that SIGCOV can be presumed for >90% of individuals. Nothing here indicates any work has been done to establish this evidence. JoelleJay (talk) 00:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. I used guidelines from other less well known sports, for example, curling, orienteering as a equivalency and mapped Bridge events to other sports.Nicolas.hammond (talk) 16:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)