File talk:London , Kodachrome by Chalmers Butterfield.jpg

Beautiful picture... taken from north side of Picadilly circus by shaftesbury avenue. Most of the original buildings are still here!

-The digg article claims that this picture is from the 30's, but the double decker bus would indicate the 50's. Double_decker_bus

Or, indeed, the Routemaster article, showing it to be at least 1956. The license plates of the cars in the foreground follow the 1932-1963 pattern, so they're not much use in getting a precise date. As at least one digg reader has commented, there aren't many people wearing hats, either.

- Astatine 09:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--The Digg article was just a guess by the submitter but one of the commenters called Hiro narrowed it down pretty nicely

"The photo was taken in 1949. Among several things that date it (vehicles already being correctly mentioned) the clincher is the play at the Apollo theatre which only ran for 11 months. Still a great photo, but not 1930s I'm afraid"

and in addition the Eros theatre was only open from 1935, the play in question is Treasure Hunt at the Apollo Theatre about halfway down this page http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/Programmes/APOLLO.HTM you can find details on the plays run, so it seems 1949 is the correct date.82.12.223.218 10:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The buses in the photos are not Routemaster, but AEC Regent III RT, which was produced in 1940s. --218.103.214.252 13:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it's just a still from a movie.

Actually, I just noticed: I think the caption of the 'Photo taken from similar position, August 2006' is perhaps misleading - the building in the foreground of the 1940s picture is actually (I think) the one in the distant centre of the 2006 one (ie. at the junction of Great Windmill St. and Shaftesbury Avenue, not Piccadilly Circus), but the similar composition makes it look as if the lefthand (foreground) buildings are the same in both pictures. Whether that matters I will leave to someone else... --Tremolo 22:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but they look like the same buildings to me. There are many details in each photo that match perfectly. What do you see that makes you think they are different? --Beefyt 22:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, the new picture is in the same location as the original one, for the most part. Look in the distance; you can see both the slanted roof building (which looks like a "^") as well as the building with the two domes to the right of it. The only real difference between the two images is that the newer one was taken to the left of the original picture; the arch that contains the clock in the original picture is the same arch with the GAP sign in the new picture. Likewise, I believe that the three-light street light which is cut off in the right side of the new picture is the same light fixture towards the middle of the original picture. -- Nick15 02:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to call into doubt the notion that the 'shiny cabs are circa 1940.' If I am not mistaken, there were NO CARS made in the UK in 1940. In fact, there were no cards produced in the UK from aobut 1939 to 1946. The factories were a bit busy keeping the Island non-Nazi and what-not. - Jesse

According to the following website [1] (Marie Lohr Collection at the National Library of Australia) the Treasure Hunt production moved to Wimbledon Theatre on the 24th July 1950. (Lohr was also performing at the Globe around the 26th Jan 1950 which is when Ring Round the Moon was running - you can make out the words 'Round the Moon' on the building to the right of the Apollo.) BUT Left of the Apollo is the Lyric Theatre (you can just make out the letters L-Y-R-I-C at the top of the building). And the names Kay Hammond and John Clements. These two were making films around then but they were also working on a play, The Beaux Stratagem by George Farquhar - they had stopped working on this play in 1948 due to Kay being ill. According to the following webpage [2] the play was performed at the Lyric on 26th Jan 1950. No clue whether this was a one-off or not. And by the looks of the peoples' clothes in the photo it could be anywhere from July to July in London, tho more likely Nov-March. However, just because a play is advertised, it does not mean that the play has begun. My guess is somewhere within a month or two of January 1950. --Zorgster 03:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from the image description[edit]

Have moved these from the image description /wangi 11:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Photo was likely taken at 12:50 PM (or 1350 UMT) - note the clock on the extreme left on the jewelry store.

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I think I can date the picture much more accurately than that. Those shiny cabs are circa 1940. But the big giveaway is the red omnibus. If you download the hires picture you can see on the front it is advertising the British airline - BEA.

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Quoting that most excellent source Wikipedia we find: British European Airways, or BEA, was formed in 1946 by an Act of Parliament. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_European_Airways. The cab registration numbers suggest to me that this was taken around 1948 or 49. Further careful study will undoubtedly help us to pinpoint the date. Gareth Powell in Bangkok

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If you look at the APOLLO theatre in the background, they are showing "treasure hunt" which based on this site http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/Programmes/APOLLO.HTM has this showing circa 1949, Also http://world-theatres.com/London%20Theatres.html has "Treasure Hunt 1949 (11 months)" so its more evidence to suggest 1949-1950

John Paul Lonie

--- Another clue: also under the APOLLO theatre, the names "Kay Hammond" and "John Clements" appear. Looking on imdb shows that they were in the 1948 production of "Call of the Blood".

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Here is some interesting info on the Eros News Theatre seen in the photo:

http://cinematreasures.org/theater/13073/

The Eros News Theatre was sold to a company that now exists as "Cineworld Cinemas Limited." Maybe, they'll have more info about the theatre. They can be reached at telephone number 0870 777 2775.

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Looking at the top photo, the america car (steering wheel) beside the first bus looks like a 1949 Hudson Super Six with fog lights... http://www.1motormart.com/gallery/49hud01.jpg

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I believe we can narrow it down from between September 14, 1949 and August 13, 1950 according to this site: http://web.playbill.com/news/article/72058.html

September 14th, 1949 is opening night of Treasure Hunt

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The fairly high angle of the sun suggests summertime (remember, London is a long way North), and the flowers in the window-box (I think they are calendulas) also suggest late spring or summer.

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The Little Hut opened August 23rd, 1950 in the Lyric Theatre (where Hammond and Clements name is)

I could see spring, don't think summer since everyone is wearing their coats. Either late fall or early spring is my guess.

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The bus with the BEA adverts has an unusual type of route display, what's called a single blind, but offset to the right. So it's likely a model SRT, introduced in April 1949, and withdrawn from central London by October 1949. It looks to be displaying route 10 (Victoria), which matches that limited use. See http://www.countrybus.org.uk/STL/SRT.htm Combine this with the Treasure Hunt reference and we have a quite narrow range of dates.

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Comparing the modern and 1949 shots, it's clear that the modern camera shows a much wider angle of view, and was forward of the 1949 camera position. The apparent perspective of distant buildings is similar, but the building on the right is much closer to the camera in the modern picture.

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Not necessarily. The building on the right is the Trocadero, which was demolished and rebuilt taller in 1986, but with the 'same' facade to meet planning rules imposed to allow the redevelopment. It's carefully designed to look substantially similar to its predecessor, but is actually at least one storey taller. I'm not sure if the facade was demolished and rebuilt, or simply one or two storeys added above the original roof-line. See [3] WLD 17:05, 24 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

David Bell, Lincolnshire.

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Is that Ring Round the Moon (red lettering, beyond the Apollo) which is playing at the Globe (sometimes referred to as the Old Globe, now the Gielgud) Theatre? It opened "in 1950", adapted by Christopher Fry, directed by Peter Brook, featuring Paul Scofield and Margaret Rutherford. There is a reference to it on 26.1.1950 here: http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/Programmes/PRG1950.HTM

Doug Dickinson, London.

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Further to the note from David Bell, the bus with the BEA advert is actually a late 1940s RT rather than an SRT (the latter being an STL/RT hybrid which lasted from 1949 to 1954). It is on route 38 to Victoria (the 10 did go to Victoria but via London Bridge and Lambeth, not Piccadilly Circus) and the 'single blind' is the (for the period) standard one-piece display originated during the Second World War as an eonomy measure which gradually gave way to the intended three-piece displays from the early 1950s. The bus going out of camera to the right of the picture, with a Schweppes advert on the side, is one of 65 1946-vintage STD-type Leyland Titan PD1s and used, inter alia, on route 38A to Victoria from Loughton.

John Wagstaff, Croydon

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Does the person who posted this amazing photograph have any others to share?

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It's kind of ugly now. It looked so much better in the 50s.

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Beautiful picture... taken from north side of Picadilly circus by shaftesbury avenue. Most of the original buildings are still here!

-The digg article claims that this picture is from the 30's, but the double decker bus would indicate the 50's. Double_decker_bus

--

Or, indeed, the Routemaster article, showing it to be at least 1956. The license plates of the cars in the foreground follow the 1932-1963 pattern, so they're not much use in getting a precise date. As at least one digg reader has commented, there aren't many people wearing hats, either. - Astatine 09:09, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The Digg article was just a guess by the submitter but one of the commenters called Hiro narrowed it down pretty nicely

"The photo was taken in 1949. Among several things that date it (vehicles already being correctly mentioned) the clincher is the play at the Apollo theatre which only ran for 11 months. Still a great photo, but not 1930s I'm afraid"

and in addition the Eros theatre was only open from 1935, the play in question is Treasure Hunt at the Apollo Theatre about halfway down this page http://library.kent.ac.uk/library/special/Programmes/APOLLO.HTM you can find details on the plays run, so it seems 1949 is the correct date.82.12.223.218 10:24, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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The buses in the photos are not Routemaster, but AEC Regent III RT, which was produced in 1940s. --218.103.214.252 13:21, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Maybe it's just a still from a movie.

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Actually, I just noticed: I think the caption of the 'Photo taken from similar position, August 2006' is perhaps misleading - the building in the foreground of the 1940s picture is actually (I think) the one in the distant centre of the 2006 one (ie. at the junction of Great Windmill St. and Shaftesbury Avenue, not Piccadilly Circus), but the similar composition makes it look as if the lefthand (foreground) buildings are the same in both pictures. Whether that matters I will leave to someone else... --Tremolo 22:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Sorry, but they look like the same buildings to me. There are many details in each photo that match perfectly. What do you see that makes you think they are different? --Beefyt 22:50, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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No, the new picture is in the same location as the original one, for the most part. Look in the distance; you can see both the slanted roof building (which looks like a "^") as well as the building with the two domes to the right of it. The only real difference between the two images is that the newer one was taken to the left of the original picture; the arch that contains the clock in the original picture is the same arch with the GAP sign in the new picture. Likewise, I believe that the three-light street light which is cut off in the right side of the new picture is the same light fixture towards the middle of the original picture. -- Nick15 02:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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I would like to call into doubt the notion that the 'shiny cabs are circa 1940.' If I am not mistaken, there were NO CARS made in the UK in 1940. In fact, there were no cards produced in the UK from aobut 1939 to 1946. The factories were a bit busy keeping the Island non-Nazi and what-not. - Jesse

---

According to the following website [4] (Marie Lohr Collection at the National Library of Australia) the Treasure Hunt production moved to Wimbledon Theatre on the 24th July 1950. (Lohr was also performing at the Globe around the 26th Jan 1950 which is when Ring Round the Moon was running - you can make out the words 'Round the Moon' on the building to the right of the Apollo.) BUT Left of the Apollo is the Lyric Theatre (you can just make out the letters L-Y-R-I-C at the top of the building). And the names Kay Hammond and John Clements. These two were making films around then but they were also working on a play, The Beaux Stratagem by George Farquhar - they had stopped working on this play in 1948 due to Kay being ill. According to the following webpage [5] the play was performed at the Lyric on 26th Jan 1950. No clue whether this was a one-off or not. And by the looks of the peoples' clothes in the photo it could be anywhere from July to July in London, tho more likely Nov-March. However, just because a play is advertised, it does not mean that the play has begun. My guess is somewhere within a month or two of January 1950. --Zorgster 03:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Another photo that may help identify the date is [6] (Another photo taken by the same person at - judging by everything I can see - probably just minutes after/before this one.)

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If you look to the right of the later/earlier photo, you can see another clock face. It looks as if this picture was taken around seven minutes earlier, from a location further left. It is also clear that on this day there were severe traffic jams, as the first bus has only moved around 10-20 metres in seven minutes. 12 May 2007 by isayhey07.

Is that a wreath just below and left of the Monico sign? If so, it could be a Christmas decoration and might place this photo around December 1949.

No, if you look at the full size image, you will see that it is a "Dispensing Chemist" sign. WLD^talk|edits 11:33, 23 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All of the discussion centres on the signs, cars etc. The flowers might provide a better clue. It appears to me that no flowers that look like that would be in bloom in the early stages of the year. They look more like Marigolds or something, that are more likely to be there in late Summer or Autumn time. Given that the people are wearing coats, I'd date it at early-mid Autumn, so it must be 1949. Matthewsheehan (talk) 20:28, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]