File talk:Laws regarding incest.svg

In Russia incestuous marriage prohibited!

In Soviet Russia, incest prohibits YOU! 163.1.150.29 (talk) 09:47, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Missing colourings

According to the article, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Ireland, Romania, Sweden, Switzerland, Hongkong, Malaysia, Vietnam, South Africa all should be coloured red. Turkey should be yellow. Could someone add these to the map?

(Also, Spain, China and Cote d'Ivoire should be "non-red" (green or yellow), but it's not clear which exact colour.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

BTW, the colouring scheme makes little sense: blue, not green countries are the most liberal ones, so the colours should be switched. (Or green should be reserved for complete legality, which currently isn't covered at all). Also the definitions for green and yellow intersect... --Roentgenium111 (talk) 16:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Sweden

The map indicates that incest is legal, but the relevant article states that "Incest with a descendant or a full sibling is prohibited by law in Sweden."--86.186.231.126 (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

Picture removal from article

I removed the file from the respective article because of the following reasons:

1. Too few countries are depicted, and two of them, USA and Sweden are not correctly colored (USA law varies between states and Sweden prohibits incest between consenting adults).

2. The green “Incest with a minor prohibited, but incest is legal otherwise.” is actually the same category as the yellow “Incest between consenting adults not prohibited, incestuous marriage prohibited”, because (a) no country legalises incest between an adult and a minor, (b) the countries that do not have laws against incest between consenting adults, do not legalise incestuous marriage.

3. The grey “No Incest laws/unknown” is not accurate, it is either “the country has no law against incest”, hence it is category red or green, or “no data available”.

4. The comment in the grey category “*In some countries, sexual relations between adults and minors are prohibited regardless of familial status.” is totally inaccurate, if there must be a comment, this should be something like “no country allows incest between an adult and a minor”. Because the subject here is not the age of consent. It could be that in some countries sexual relations between an adult and a minor is allowed (and this again is controlled by the respective laws), but no country allows sexual incestuous relations between an adult and a minor, can you name one?

5.The image should be edited in the model of File:Age of Consent - Global.svg, with the categories,

a. Incest between consenting adults prohibited, incestuous marriage prohibited

b. Incest between consenting adults not prohibited, incestuous marriage prohibited

c. No data available

If by any change someone finds a country which allows sexual incestuous relations between an adult and a minor, or which allows incestuous marriange, then the category can be added.Wolfymoza (talk) 09:04, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

ad 1: From Laws regarding incest, the U.S. is coloured correctly in terms of the vast majority of states - the only "legal" state mentioned is New Jersey (and I have now added the missing Rhode Island; three states are still missing in the section). Sweden is wrong indeed, they only allow half-sibling incest.

ad 2: It's not quite as clear-cut. The Netherlands seems to allow incest also with a consenting minor [1]; and Sweden allows half-sibling marriage.

ad 4: The Netherlands (see above).

ad 5: I agree that these categories (plus one for consenting minors, i.e. equal age of consent for incest and other relations) seem more reasonable. So make a request at the graphics lab? --Roentgenium111 (talk) 15:14, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

I'd suggest the following new image categories:

Green - Incest and incestuous marriage legal [if such countries exist]

Blue - Consenting incest legal (same age of consent as for any sexual relations), marriage illegal

Yellow - Incest between consenting adults legal, illegal with minors

Red - Incest between consenting adults illegal

When we don't have enough sources to establish a country's colour, I'd use the highest category which can be sourced as a "conservative estimate".--Roentgenium111 (talk) 12:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

"The Netherlands seems to allow incest also with a consenting minor": Of course it doesn't! Which country in earth allows a father to say to his daughter or son "hey, lets have sex, it's good for you", and the law allows him to do so, allows him to persuade his child to consent?!! First of all there is no such thing as "consenting minor". Article 244 and 245 of the Dutch Penal Code (google translate will do the job) of Penal Code defines "under 12" and "12 but under 16", and imposes imprisonment up to 12 years or fine, and up to 8 years or fine, for sexual relations of any kind including indecent acts with under ages persons. Aslo, Article 249 states “He who commits adultery with his minor child, stepchild or foster child, his pupil, one entrusted to his care, instruction or supervision minor or minor servant or subordinate, shall be punished with imprisonment not exceeding six years or a fine of the fourth category.” Hope that’s all clear… Wolfymoza (talk) 07:16, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Let's please try to keep this discussion rational, in spite of the contentious topic. There are all kinds of "outrageous" laws in some countries, and all countries where incest is legal do allow a father to seduce his daughter when she's of age.

But thanks for finding the actual Dutch laws, which are what matters here. Articles 244 and 245 only criminalize sexual acts with under 16-year olds, so there clearly can be "consenting minors" in the Netherlands, as in most other countries where the age of consent is below 18 (see Age of consent). Depending on the definition of "adultery" ("ontucht"), article 249 indeed states that incest with consenting minors is forbidden, contradicting the BBC article I quoted above. Usually the BBC is a reliable source, but the actual law is naturally a better source, if we can verify the definition of adultery used there. --Roentgenium111 (talk) 12:39, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

BTW, our article also mentions Argentina and Brazil allowing incest with a consenting minor (over the age of consent). The Brazil claim seems to be unreferenced, but the Argentina claim is sourced by the actual law: [2] - consenting sex of adults with minors (over 12 resp. 16 years) is only forbidden when the adult abuses a position of power/dependency etc., with no special restriction placed on relatives. (Living in a common household is an aggravating factor for sexual abuse, but not a crime by itself.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:50, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

First of all, and this is a personal opinion not addressed personally to you, for me “consenting sex of adults with minors” is a disgusting and sorry euphemism for pederasty, and even more disgusting when the adult is the father or mother of their own child. Second, sorry but I can’t see where you deducted your interpretation of the Argentinean law, which is extremely strict. Article 119 says “Abusare sexualmente”, sexual abuse. Abuse in this phrase doesn’t mean violence or force or rape or abuse of power. You try do anything sexual with a minor, it’s sexual abuse. The penalty is 6 months to 4 years, which goes to 6 to 15 years when “…hubiere acceso carnal por cualquier vía”, “there was carnal contact of any kind”. And below (b), clearly refers to relatives and brothers, and imposes even harder penalty in this case, 8 to 20 years!

Moreover, to leave no way to sexual harassment or sexual abuse of the minors, Article 125 states that “El que promoviere o facilitare la corrupción de menores de dieciocho años, aunque mediare el consentimiento de la víctima”, “whoever promotes or facilitates the corruption of minors under 18 years old, even with the victim’s consent”. First, it says víctima, victim, it considers the minor victim, even if he / she consented. And second, it doesn’t even says sexual or abuse, it says corrupción, corruption, which includes far more cases than just sexual abuse. And the penalty is 3 to 10 years, 6 to 15 years if the victim was under 13, and, notice please, whatever the age, 10-15 years if (among other cases) the perpetrator is a relative. Wolfymoza (talk) 07:24, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand and respect your personal opinion, but it is at odds with the laws of most Western countries, which do explicitly allow “consenting sex of adults with minors” (at least) when they are not related and the minor is over the age of consent. I'd also find a sexual relation between a parent and his minor child disgusting (at least when the child grew up with the parent), but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be criminalized IMO.

You're misunderstanding Article 119 - it only criminalizes "sexual abuse" when the victim is under the age of 13 (not 18!) or when force, threat or a position of power etc. is (ab)used. The definition of the crime for over-13s doesn't even refer to minors, adults can also be the victims of "sexual abuse". (b) below does mention relatives, but it does not create a new condition for the act being criminal, it only increases the penalty when a crime in the sense of the first paragraph, aggravated by the condition given in the 2nd or 3rd paragraph ("En los supuestos de los dos párrafos anteriores"), is committed.

Finally, in Article 125, "corrupcion" evidently does not refer to every sexual contact - otherwise the "under-13" condition in Article 119 would be superfluous, and the age of consent in Argentina would be 18, which it isn't. We'd have to ask an Argentinian lawyer what "corruption" legally means here, the word does not have a clear-cut legal meaning. (From looking at Article 125bis, I suppose it refers to prostitution in some sense.) --Roentgenium111 (talk) 14:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)