File talk:Christianity percentage by country.png
Why is this here? lots of it is so obviously wrong/contradicts other pages here, its like someone randomly filled in the color on some of the countries.
I agree. I know that about 69% of Britains still self-identify as Christian, for example.
I agree too. In Romania, 1.5% (less than 1% after some estimates) of the people declared to be Atheists, and Islam makes around 0.2%. This means there are 97.3% - 98.3% Christians, making it one of the most religious countries in Europe, and one of the most Christian in the world. I don't know why here it's shown having 80-90% which is wrong by 7.3%-18.3%!
Macedonia is shown as having a 30-39% Christian population when in fact it should be 60-69%.
- Seems like a load of best guesses to me, or data from unofficial polls at best. Shouldn't we be using the latest census data wherever available, for consistancy? This map seems very unencyclopaedic. Marky-Son 00:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Norway/Sweden/Iceland aren't correct shown on the map. For example Norway. In Norway over 90 procent are Christians and on this map it is show as 30 procent. the Netherlands isn't correct as well. In the Netherlands there are around 48% Christians. I hope you can change this in your map.
- Denmark neither, where more than 80% are members of The Danish National Church, and many others members of various other christian societies. And a recent survey concluded at least 80% professed a belief in God and saw themselves as christians. Yet Denmark is coloured in the 10-19%. Completely wrong. Rune X2 18:50, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- Rune X2, you are right about the vast majority of the Danish population being members of the church organization. However, you should take into account, that 1) most of these people have never actively applied for membership themselves, 2) one may have other reasons to be a member than religious ones (e.g. the church serves as an insurance company in cases of wedding, funeral etc.), 3) accordingly, there are members of the church who simply do not believe in God. So 10-19% is not necessarily wrong.Alfons Åberg 22:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- You certainly might be memeber of the church and still see yourself as non-christian, however you have to be baptised to be memer of the church so while most of these people have not themselves actively sought membership, their parents have. And one should also take into account that it actually cost a non-trivial amount to be member of the church, so one might assume that self-indentified atheists would opt to leave the church and save the money.
- Anyway, it is difficult to asses the number of persons belonging to a faith. Especially when the counting ought be done fairly uniformly over the various countries for such a map to be worth anything. I suggest using the numbers from the CIA World Fact Book, rather than some random surveys. Rune X2 15:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Talking of 'random' surveys - the CIA world factbook claims that 98% of the population of Denmark are Christians, and 2% are Muslims, i.e. that everyone without exception is religious. This is obviously based on the assumption that one is a Christian per default, unless one specifically asserts the opposite. So the source you are recommending is not reliable, to put it mildly. By the way, it'll be a tough job distinguishing between Christians and Muslims, really. I've read that only 10 or 15 per cent of the population are able to explain what trinity is. So I guess few people can actually tell whether they are Christians or Muslims themselves - unless they know that they believe in neither religion. Alfons Åberg 19:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think Wiki is on very shaky ground it was to try to gauge and cast judgment on the depth of peoples’ faith or their knowledge of it. In issues of faith there’s really only one route to go: if a person says he is of this-or-that faith – then that’s what he is. For nations which keeps records of the number baptized that is clearly the data to use. As it is now, the map is worse than useless. I can make one like it with some random colours put about. Won't make it any better. Rune X2 15:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- The fact that one was exposed to baptism before he/she could speak is certainly no indicaition of that persons beliefs. Regarding usefulness, remember that Wikipedia and its images should first and foremost be useful to its readers, rather than its editors. Alfons Åberg 19:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- And what superior alternatives do you suggest to baptism do you suggest? I don't know what you mean to say with the usefulness. Do you consider the current version useful, when it seems highly misleading? Rune X2 10:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- And what superiour alternatives do you suggest to baptism do you suggest?
- I think that we should conduct indepth qualitative inteviews to establish a multi-dimensional understanding of religiousness in the 21st century. This is obviously not readily available. But whatever we do, we shouldn't go and tell people that they are Christians, just because they happen to be baptized. Alfons Åberg 10:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- The fact that one was exposed to baptism before he/she could speak is certainly no indicaition of that persons beliefs. Regarding usefulness, remember that Wikipedia and its images should first and foremost be useful to its readers, rather than its editors. Alfons Åberg 19:20, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think Wiki is on very shaky ground it was to try to gauge and cast judgment on the depth of peoples’ faith or their knowledge of it. In issues of faith there’s really only one route to go: if a person says he is of this-or-that faith – then that’s what he is. For nations which keeps records of the number baptized that is clearly the data to use. As it is now, the map is worse than useless. I can make one like it with some random colours put about. Won't make it any better. Rune X2 15:46, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
- Talking of 'random' surveys - the CIA world factbook claims that 98% of the population of Denmark are Christians, and 2% are Muslims, i.e. that everyone without exception is religious. This is obviously based on the assumption that one is a Christian per default, unless one specifically asserts the opposite. So the source you are recommending is not reliable, to put it mildly. By the way, it'll be a tough job distinguishing between Christians and Muslims, really. I've read that only 10 or 15 per cent of the population are able to explain what trinity is. So I guess few people can actually tell whether they are Christians or Muslims themselves - unless they know that they believe in neither religion. Alfons Åberg 19:31, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- Rune X2, you are right about the vast majority of the Danish population being members of the church organization. However, you should take into account, that 1) most of these people have never actively applied for membership themselves, 2) one may have other reasons to be a member than religious ones (e.g. the church serves as an insurance company in cases of wedding, funeral etc.), 3) accordingly, there are members of the church who simply do not believe in God. So 10-19% is not necessarily wrong.Alfons Åberg 22:09, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't develop this map. However, I can figure out what the root of this controversy is. Many of the European nations are coloured according to the data in the Eurobarometer survey (http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/ebs/ebs_225_report_en.pdf, page 11). This means that the ratings for each country reflects the percentage of the inhabitants who say they believe in God. One problem is, of course, that this number includes not only Christians, but also Muslims and Jews. I don't know where the figures for all the other countries come from. Alfons Åberg 21:20, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I suggest that we remove the image, or at least remove it from the wiki "Christianity". Richardprins 15:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
The map should reflect official census data. The results of the Eurobarometer survey are not representative as there are quite many people in Europe who may not believe in God but will always describe themselves as Christians and will follow certain religious rites (Christmas and Easter mostly. Besides, the Eurobarometer data significantly distorts the overall picture - there are no Eurobarometer surveys in the Americas, Africa, Asia and Australia... You should always apply ONE standard criterion, not several at your own discretin. Off with the map! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.83.225.63 (talk) 20:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit]
I ask the author - do Norway and Sweden have inly 10 % christians? That is an absolute nonsens. Both have 80-90% Lutherans. Remove the image, pls. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Laborec (talk • contribs) 07:51, 28 November 2007 (UTC) Russia is wrong to, heck it shows that Kazakhstan has more christians then in Scandinavia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.70.108.113 (talk) 12:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
- Anyone who's ever lived in Scandinavia would actually tell you that 10% is a fairly reasonable number. Being a member of the former state church isn't really a true indication of one's personal faith, and Kazakhstan is a far more religious country than any of the Scandinavian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.225.24.132 (talk) 01:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter whether someone is an active member of the church or not. As long as someone is considered a member of the church BY THE CHURCH and have been baptized as a member of the church, they are christians. One's personal beliefs play no role what so ever in this matter. That's why I strongly oppose the picture showing that Finland, Sweden and Norway have only 10-19% christians, whereas in reality they have about 80-89% each. --91.156.142.19 (talk) 10:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, Kazahstan happens to be a muslim country. --84.94.122.53 (talk) 13:35, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Similar disputes have been brought up on the Christianity discussion page here. Take a look at it if you wish. --Signaj90 (talk) 16:40, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Develop a Wikipedia Map?[edit]
I am uncertain about what is possible for wikipedia, but would it be possible for us to develop a new map on the basis of research done by editors? It'd be complicated and take a while, but I think there are plenty of people who would be happy to contribute to it.
If this is something that seems possible and worthwhile, it seems to me that what is necessary are the following:
1. Agreement on a list of countries to be represented. I suggest those countries recognized by the UN.
2. Compilation of a variety of sources for each country.
3. Agreement upon the most accurate of these sources as well as the Wikipedia favored criteria for determining whether one is Christian or not (Formal membership, professed beliefs, attendance of services, etc).
4. Averaging the most favored sources into a final percentage for each country.
5. Producing a map.
It seems to go without saying that such a project should include parallel projects for Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc.
Thoughts? --Signaj90 (talk) 16:26, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- I've revised the map according to the CIA Factbook. The process you describe seems like a form of original research exceeding the bounds of the limited OR exception allowed for images. This sounds more like a project for an original publication studying the issue than an appropriate process for creating a Wikipedia image. We should stick to straightforward reliable sources, leaving our own criteria for "Christian" completely out of the mix. Vassyana (talk) 20:52, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'll say sure to your adherence to "straightforward reliable sources," though I'll add a caviat: In the effort to sift through a multitude of potentially reliable sources, philisophical discussions regarding criteria for favoring one over another are appropriate and, in my opinion, highly helpful. Respectfully --Signaj90 (talk) 03:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a user call Nyo who is changing the map over and over again to downgrade percentages. Only less than 10% of Scandinavia is Christian? Ridiculous. Please, change the map according to reliable sources, whatever they are and not with the specific views of a user. This is an encyclopaedia, not a pamphlet to further the specific worldview of one user. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.39.81.125 (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Russia[edit]
It's not possible that only 10-20% of Russians are Christians.--Vojvodaeist 18:47, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed there are more than 85% at least of Russians whose nominal religion is Christianity: ethnic Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Chuvash, Karelians, Osetians etc. --Kuban Cossack (По-балакаем?) 13:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Norway and Svalbard/Spitsbergen[edit]
The map is quite a nonsense. Most particular is the fact that Norway is shown with 10-19 percent Christians and the Norwegian archipelo Svalbard (or Spitsbergen) is shown with over 90 % Christians. --195.139.16.34 (talk) 13:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
In 2003 TNS Gallup Norway made a survey in cooperation with The Norwegian Bible Society. In this 61 percent of the Norwegian population stated that they looked upon themselves eighter as Christians or "personal Christians". Over 30 percent of Norwegians attend church during Christian holidays (especially during Christmas). Over 80 percent of the Norwegian population are baptized and members of the Church of Norway and in addition to that some percent are members in other Christian churches or communities. In my opinion Wikipedia articles and illustrations should not be made based on "educated guessing", but rely strictly on statistics. Based upon membership-statistics approx. 85 percent of the Norwegian population is Christian. That is the most reliable source we have. It is the parents that decide wether to baptize their children or not - and everybody has the free right to withdraw from church membership. In this way church-membership show us what the grown-up population have chose to do in this matter. In Scandinavia we have the peculiar tradition to devide between the "ordinary christian church members" and so called "personal Christians". The way the map is coloured right now only "personal Christians" are counted as true Christians of Norway. As an ordinary church-member I feel this to be prejudiced and distressing. Together with most Norwegians I want to be considered a Christian even if I don't attend church every Sunday.
Please change this map, it doesn't show us the true situation in Norway (and Scandinavia).
Sources (in Norwegian):
--195.139.16.34 (talk) 14:16, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
