File talk:British Isles Venn Diagram.png

Ireland

I suggest changing the blue (political) "Ireland" to "Éire = (Republic of) Ireland". – Kaihsu 12:47, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest that the blue "Ireland" should be labelled "Republic of Ireland", and it should also be in its own "sub-circle"; at present, the diagram appears to show that NI is part of the Republic! Silverhelm 11:46, 28 May 2006 (UTC).

The name should simply be "Republic of Ireland"; that is the state's only official English-language name. --IP 138.251.254.113 20:03, 30 October 2006)

Channel Islands

That little circle in the bottom right labelled "British Isles" ought to be "Channel Islands"! Blisco 18:20, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Now fixed. Blisco 09:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Ideally I think that there should be two separate smaller circles included as well for "Jersey" and "Guernsey"... although it might be best to have a completely separate diagram for the Channel Islands, so as to also show Alderney and Sark without over-balancing the main diagram? Silverhelm 11:50, 28 May 2006 (UTC).

England, Wales, and Scotland

It looks like England and Wales are a part of Scotland. Sweetie Petie 08:54, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

True; the three countries ought to be in separate circles. There could be a further circle around Englandandwales to show that it is sometimes a distinct political entity, although that would probably be more confusing than enlightening. Blisco 09:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree that there should be three separate circles, for each of England, Wales, and Scotland. I don't think a separate circle is truly necessary for "England and Wales", since "England and Wales" as an expression is quite transparent for "England" + "Wales". Silverhelm 11:49, 28 May 2006 (UTC).

I changed the circle back to an ellipse, and moved some captions around a little, so the new version of the image should be clearer now. Regardless of terminology, "England and Wales" is a significant legal and historical entity. Three circles would obscure this (and would clutter the diagram). AnonMoos 06:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Still, England and Wales are NOT part of Scotland, and this depiction is incorrect. Two or three circles within Great Britain won't do, since Great Britain is simply the sum of England, Scotland and Wales. The Great Britain circle would be better represented as a pie chart.

I don't see how the current version (23:01, 30 May 2006) really promotes the view that England and Wales are part of Scotland -- the "label" for the contents of all of a circle is always horizontally centered near the top of the circle, and the word "Scotland" is not horizontally-centered within its enclosing circle, nor near the top of the circle. The thing about pie charts is that they're completely unstructured, while the purpose of this diagram is to show structured inclusion and exclusion relations. AnonMoos 15:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I can understand now why it's been designed the way that it has. However, I still feel that it's misleading, whereas putting Scotland in its own circle would be completely unambiguous. Silverhelm 18:18, 19 June 2006 (UTC).

I also agree that the existing diagram is wrong and should be fixed or deleted. England and Wales are clearly being shown as part of Scotland. To anyone who doesn't already know that this isn't the case it is very misleading. Each should be in their own circle. Yes, that would clutter the diagram more which shows that it needs to be made larger to add space. -- Ralph Corderoy 10:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

No, England and Wales are not shown as being part of Scotland -- the "label" for the contents of all of a circle is always horizontally centered within the circle right up at the very top of the circle (this has been made even clearer in the current "21:06, 15 July 2006" version of the graphic), while the word "Scotland" is not horizontally-centered within its enclosing circle, nor near the top of the circle. It's easy to propose adding more circles around everything in the diagram, but hard to figure out how to preserve legibility at a reasonable thumbnail display size while preserving relative clarity once you've added them... AnonMoos 10:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

That may well be true, but most readers don't know the conventions for these types of diagrams. My first impression was "England and Wales part of Scotland? That can't be right" - I'm sure I'm not alone. For the sake of clarity, it would be useful to make the change. Tom Harris 13:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

The diagram is severely misleading. It would be better deleted than remain in its current state. It is not a Venn diagram. It's an ad hoc diagram that has no well known rules for its interpretation, hence AnonMoos having to explain that "Scotland" is not horizontally-centered in its enclosing circle. I suggest the diagram be removed since it is an incorrect, incomplete, representation of the correct facts stated in the article text. -- Ralph Corderoy 16:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Further minor changes (July 15)

See Talk:British Isles (terminology). -- AnonMoos 21:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Great Britain

Great Britain is shown as a geographical entity that encompasses the political England and Wales. This isn't true since the text of the article says the geographical G.B. is the largest island so it excludes the Isle of Wight which is part of the political England, Anglesey which is part of the political Wales, etc. -- Ralph Corderoy 10:55, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that approach would be to pursue theoretical abstract metaphysical geography far beyond practicality... AnonMoos 11:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it shows that the "Venn" diagram is way out of its depth in trying to represent the complexity that is the British Isles and it should be deleted. See my other comment above. Is it OK for anyone to remove it? -- Ralph Corderoy 16:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If you ignore the fact that two of the islands are much bigger than all the others, then there's a problem. If you don't ignore the fact that two of the islands are much bigger than all the others, then there's not much of a problem. The diagram does reasonably well what it was designed to do. Unfortunately, it wasn't intended to be used for the purposes of deciding the status of the Isle of Wight, Anglesey, the Hebrides, Orkneys, or Shetlands. AnonMoos 19:23, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Isle of Man

It won't look so elegant, but "Isle of Man" should also be in blue! Silverhelm 11:52, 28 May 2006 (UTC).

Euler

Just reading up - isn't the title "Venn" diagram inappropriate here?

The British Isles terminology article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29) refers to this type of drawing as an Euler diagram. Which, based on this definition - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diagram - seems more appropriate.

I learn something new every day over here at Wikipedia ....

It an Euler diagram. Pronounced "oiler". He was the most famous person to live in the 18th century and everyone still talks about him daily today, so it wouldn't hurt to learn to pronounce his name. Michael Hardy (talk) 04:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

England/Wales circle?

What is the purpose of the circle around England and Wales? It isn't even labeled. --Yath 20:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

As has been mentioned several times here and/or at Talk:British Isles (terminology), the ellipse around England and Wales indicates that England and Wales taken together form a significant legal and historical unit. AnonMoos 00:33, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah. Not having a label, it deviates from the convention followed by the rest of the diagram. Given that it's so prone to confusion, a better design might be a good idea. Come to think of it, there's no obvious reason for "British Isles" to be in parentheses, nor for "Channel Islands" and "Isle of Man" to be in their own circles. --Yath 01:47, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Great Britain Circle

"Great Britain" is a political entity see Kingdom of Great Britain. Windyjarhead 05:51, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

For entities which are both geographically-defined and politically-defined, geography takes precedence. AnonMoos 18:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)