File:Echo Helstrom 1957-1958 yearbook portraits.png

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Echo_Helstrom_1957-1958_yearbook_portraits.png(421 × 236 pixels, file size: 161 KB, MIME type: image/png)

Summary[edit]

Media data and Non-free use rationale
Description Merged photos of high school yearbook pictures of Echo Helstrom, Bob Dylan's girlfriend in those years. Very poor quality black and white.
Author or
copyright owner
Either the phographer who took the pics for the Hibbing High School yearbook portraits, or else the school district itself. Possibly taken by a fellow student but this is unlikely. Identity of photographer MAY be given in the yearbooks, of which a few still exist but may all be private collections
Source (WP:NFCC#4) Original publication: Hibbing, Minnesota high school yearbooks ("Hematite") of 1957 and 1958

Immediate source: Worthpoint: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1957-bob-dylan-high-school-yearbook-204460781?popular (for the left portrait) and https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1958-bob-dylan-high-school-yearbook-153646235 (for the right portrait)

Date of publication 1957 and 1958
Use in article (WP:NFCC#7) Echo Helstrom
Purpose of use in article (WP:NFCC#8) for visual identification of the person in question, at the top of their biographical article
Not replaceable with
free media because
(WP:NFCC#1)
She's dead, but even more, THIS PARTICULAR image is the only one (that we've seen) of Helstrom in High School, as Dylan experienced her, and that is key. A photo of an older Helstrom is much less useful. And the HIGH SCHOOL portraits, having some value, will surely never be released.
Minimal use (WP:NFCC#3) Well, it's two small quite grainy monochrome portraits, used one time at the top of the article.
Respect for
commercial opportunities
(WP:NFCC#2)
OK, now here's where it gets interesting.

The SOURCE of the photo -- the actual physical high school yearbooks -- are rare and valuable. In fact we got the image from Worthpoint, an auction site that was selling it. Abe Books has a copy and they are asking US$ 1,750.00.

However, that is for the physical yearbook. The digital image -- this is less clear. First of all, when the image was published, there's a fair chance that no copyright notice was given by the photographer (There may have been a copyright notice for the book overall, the text. Probably not, can't tell without access to a copy.) We believe that if so this would mean that there's no copyright.

At any rate, the image is monochrome, small, and fuzzy. Nevertheless a writer could still want it in a book or article, or a person might want to buy a digital copy for their own viewing. If the copyright holder or her estate can be found. And cajoled to license the rights after 63 years. How much would be paid -- we don't know. Enough to make a difference to a 90 year old woman or her estate, quite possibly.

Other information The subject of the photograph has been deceased since: 2018

So first of all the presumption that an unobtainable photo of a dead person is permitted per WP:NFCI #10 ("Pictures of deceased persons, in articles about that person, provided that ever obtaining a free close substitute is not reasonably likely" unless from a photo agency such as Getty, which this image isn't).

So, the objection would be around whether the copyright holders (if knowable, if it is even copyrighted) commercial value is diminished to any significant degree by our publishing this image. If you think so we can discuss it. (FWIW it appears the copyright holder hasn't come forward to monetize it in the 63 years since publication, at least not successfully, as no photo archive or anyone else seems to have it.)

Altho the photo itself is not actually discussed in the article (we suppose we could shoehorn something in if you insist, but that's not the best way to make articles), we do think it's useful for demonstrating "What Bob Dylan saw when he was crushing on her and dating her, and how he remembered her when he wrote the song (if he did)", which is the main source of her notability and important for the reader to fully understand the entity, we think.

The photos were taken in 1957-1958. Supposing the photographer was 25, she would be 88 in 2021 and so quite possibly alive or recently deceased.

The source (Worthpoint) is pretty strict -- the page says "Items in the Worthopedia® are obtained exclusively from licensors and partners solely for our members’ research needs" and also "Raw data from eBay under sublicense". But the "items" is the physical yearbook. "Obtained from licensors and partners" doesn't mean they obtained copyright and distribution rights (which would include making more physical copies of the book unless specifically forbidden). Why would they. And the only thing the mark with an ® is the Worthpoint name itself. They could have said "All images here are ® Worthpoint or source", but they didn't.

Of course in the real human world, somebody came to them and said "sell this physical item for me". There was no seeking out of copyright holders of the photos and paying for the rights (as that would be money wasted). I'm 99+% sure that this is the case, so while Worthpoint can say "We don't own the rights, but we're putting this excerpt here, but you can't use it", so what, anybody can say that. Get the copyright or clam up.

Fair useFair use of copyrighted material in the context of Echo Helstrom//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Echo_Helstrom_1957-1958_yearbook_portraits.pngtrue

Licensing[edit]

File history

Click on a date/time to view the file as it appeared at that time.

Date/TimeThumbnailDimensionsUserComment
current00:01, 24 October 2021Thumbnail for version as of 00:01, 24 October 2021421 × 236 (161 KB)DatBot (talk | contribs)Reduce size of non-free image (BOT - disable)
21:31, 22 October 2021No thumbnail511 × 287 (209 KB)Herostratus (talk | contribs)Uploading a non-free historic portrait using File Upload Wizard
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